[Xinix]

That is a 19% saving on the range loss in cold weather, so 19% of the loss, not a 19% increase in total range...

Hadn't seen this when I posted my previous post. Yes, that sounds more acceptable

 

[I'm a BeliEVer]

Maybe, but that's not like-for-like, the Ioniq 5 is much bigger and heavier, and the Ioniq 5 and EV6 just can't match Ioniq and e-Niro consumption under any circumstances....

All you're really saying is that the e-Niro is more efficient than the Ioniq 5; the heat pump is a tiny portion of that difference.

Yes the Ioniq 5 is bigger and heavier. What I'm saying is the difference between the two is more noticeable in the winter. This is based on my own personal experience having owned and driven both over an extended period of time.

 

[Indian]

My e-Niro has the heat pump and I have not yet driven the car in the winter. I live in the south with green winters. Extreme freezing temperatures are rare.
Just this morning the temperature was 4 degrees and I got into in a warm car. The heat pump also gives an even temperature inside the car.All e-Niros here have the heat pump.
There are only 2 trims available here. The standard and the exclusive
My car cost me 42,000 euros including rustproofing,(Mercasol) sunroof, winter and summer alloys and tyres, rubber mats, leather seats and both charging cables.
Another advantage of the heat pump will be a more effective pre-heating of the battery.

 

[Naturetech]

Maybe a bit off-topic, but all EVs in the UK technically do have heat pumps. The fact that EV makers charge a fortune for adding a $50 reversing valve and very little else to the refrigeration system to make it heat the interior too is pure craziness!
While demand is vastly greater than supply, EV companies will continue to pake the tiss.

 

[Anahata]

Maybe a bit off-topic, but all EVs in the UK technically do have heat pumps. The fact that EV makers charge a fortune for adding a $50 reversing valve and very little else to the refrigeration system to make it heat the interior too is pure craziness!

It has occurred to me that there's already a heat pump for cooling, but do cars with heat pump for heating really use the same one with the hot and cold connections reversed?

 

[Mark_T]

It has occurred to me that there's already a heat pump for cooling, but do cars with heat pump for heating really use the same one with the hot and cold connections reversed?

There is a lot more to it than just one reversing valve, multiple heat-exchangers, connecting pipes and multiple valves, but it should still only need one compressor.

 

[Indian]

Maybe a bit off-topic, but all EVs in the UK technically do have heat pumps. The fact that EV makers charge a fortune for adding a $50 reversing valve and very little else to the refrigeration system to make it heat the interior too is pure craziness!
While demand is vastly greater than supply, EV companies will continue to pake the tiss.

Here is my heat pump. This is not just adding a $50 reversing valve.

 

[prawlin]

Maybe a bit off-topic, but all EVs in the UK technically do have heat pumps. The fact that EV makers charge a fortune for adding a $50 reversing valve and very little else to the refrigeration system to make it heat the interior too is pure craziness!
While demand is vastly greater than supply, EV companies will continue to pake the tiss.

Sorry to say this but frankly that is just nonsense. Yes it uses the same compressor ‘heat pump’ unit as the AC system, but that’s where the similarity ends. There's loads of expensive additional stuff. Multiple high pressure solenoid valves, diverters, heat exchangers, extra pipe work, evaporators, condensers, temperature sensors, pressure sensors, control systems etc etc. To be honest, I’m surprised the extra price asked is as low as it is, considering the huge extra complexity of the system. Peter

Just look at this array of high pressure solenoid valves and the aluminium cast manifold work, plus the nearby plate heat exchanger. There are many other additional components elsewhere that form a part of the complex heat pump system. Somewhat more than £40 worth clearly.

 

[Naturetech]

It has occurred to me that there's already a heat pump for cooling, but do cars with heat pump for heating really use the same one with the hot and cold connections reversed?

Yes

 

[Naturetech]

Sorry to say this but frankly that is just nonsense. Yes it uses the same compressor ‘heat pump’ unit as the AC system, but that’s where the similarity ends. There's loads of expensive additional stuff. Multiple high pressure solenoid valves, diverters, heat exchangers, extra pipe work, evaporators, condensers, temperature sensors, pressure sensors, control systems etc etc. To be honest, I’m surprised the extra price asked is as low as it is, considering the huge extra complexity of the system. Peter

Just look at this array of high pressure solenoid valves and the aluminium cast manifold work, plus the nearby plate heat exchanger. There are many other additional components elsewhere that form a part of the complex heat pump system. Somewhat more than £40 worth clearly.

View attachment 162427

I'd like to see the photos of an e-Niro with no heat pump option to compare. I have a background in buildings HVAC and know for a fact there's not as much difference as people think. Either way, I was just making the point that the whole 'heat pump' option is unjustifiably expensive.

 

[Indian]

I'd like to see the photos of an e-Niro with no heat pump option to compare. I have a background in buildings HVAC and know for a fact there's not as much difference as people think. Either way, I was just making the point that the whole 'heat pump' option is unjustifiably expensive.

Here is the under hood picture with no heat pump.

 

[Anahata]

Ha! @Indian just beat me to it. I won't upload another, but mine (MY22 Niro 2 LR) is like that too.

 

[Naturetech]

Ha! @Indian just beat me to it. I won't upload another, but mine (MY22 Niro 2 LR) is like that too.

Thanks for the picture - very interesting. I'd welcome anybody to do their own research to see exactly what the differences are, and should cost in an EV though, in relation to the makers' extra option charges.

 

[Mark_T]

I'd like to see the photos of an e-Niro with no heat pump option to compare. I have a background in buildings HVAC and know for a fact there's not as much difference as people think. Either way, I was just making the point that the whole 'heat pump' option is unjustifiably expensive.

The big difference is the heat scavenging that they are doing which results in all that extra pipework, valves, heat exchangers etc.

For sure in buildings it is different, I've been used to heat-pumps in our US apartments and they are certainly a lot less complicated.

I don't doubt that there is fair value in the up-charge for the heat-pump in the Kia though, as there is a lot of extra equipment going into the car, but that is also a reason why I will not be getting one as for the marginal improvements in brings in our climate, I just don't think it is going to be worth spending the money or adding that amount of complexity and weight to the car.

 

[Brian G]

Better put the £900 towards a heat pump in your house where with cheap overnight electricity you will save a lot of money to pay for the slightly poorer mileage!

 

[Mark_T]

Better put the £900 towards a heat pump in your house where with cheap overnight electricity you will save a lot of money to pay for the slightly poorer mileage!

Trouble is with a heat-pump for the house you need cheap electricity all day, not just over night.

We are not yet ready to move away from gas heating, but it will happen eventually I'm sure.

 

[Ralkbirdy]

A home heatpump only has to hear or cool, in a car there is a requirement for both heating and also simultaneously A/C for dehumidification, so possibly two separate systems may be required, or complex systems to enable the air to be cooled and dehumidified then heated secondly.

 

[Anahata]

or complex systems to enable the air to be cooled and dehumidified then heated secondly.

The logic behind using both A/C and heat for demisting is to cool the air to condense the water vapour out of it, then heat it up to bring it back to a temperature where its relative humidity is now really low.
That can be done by passing the air through the cold and then the hot heat exchanger of a single heat pump, so it doesn't necessarily need two pumps.

 

[Brian G]

Trouble is with a heat-pump for the house you need cheap electricity all day, not just over night.

We are not yet ready to move away from gas heating, but it will happen eventually I'm sure.

The maths for a heat pump for the home are not as straightforward as you might think. I installed one to heat my 1980s 5 bed house. Oil consumption was 2400 litres a year. That eqhates to roughly 24,000 kWh. The boiler was a relatively new Worcester Bosch running at 40 degrees, ie always in condensing mode except to heat water. On paper condensing mode offered an efficiency of 93%, oil boilers are capable of a higher efficiency than gas supposedly. Since the heat pump was installed last September it has produced 15,400 kWh and consumed 5,100 kWh of electricity. The COP of just over 3 is disappointing until I realised we have 1 pump running all the time it is in use and 4 pumps when the heating is on. That is 1 main pump of industrial size which was previously in use to provide hot water and heating to 17 radiators/towel rails and now it is helped by another pump plus 2 for ufh. When the weather is mild, say 8 or 9 degrees the heat pump system consumes 1.3 to 1.8 kWh but 300 watts are for the pumps. On very cold days it consumes 3.2 kWh. It often runs 00:30 to 21:00 on cold days but on mild days 00:30 to 09:30 and 15:30 to 21:00 on warmer days. At the moment it runs 00:30 to 03:30 to provide 250 litres of hot water for 5/6 kWh at 5p. On the Go tariff my heating costs will work out to £650 for 12 months. We were away for 3.5 weeks over Xmas (in Canada where it was -27) but the heating ran for some of that time. Someone else on the forum has had the same experience of the missing electricity consumption? The electricity meter cannot lie, it has its own properly calibrated meter, the heat output is measured by a flow meter and 2 sensors measuring water temperature as it enters and leaves the heat pump. Again it is supposed to be very accurate. There are 6 meters of pipe outside the house between the sensors to fro the heat pump and being well lagged they won’t account for much heat loss. So where is the missing 6000 kWh of heat? (24000x.9 boiler output - 15,400)
Given our house has a floor area of 214 m3 and needed a double fan 14 kw heat pump most homes would do much better in terms of efficiency with say 9 radiators and an 8 kw heat pump.

 

[Mark_T]

Since the heat pump was installed last September it has produced 15,400 kWh and consumed 5,100 kWh of electricity. The COP of just over 3 is disappointing

If you are averaging a COP over 3 then you are doing fine, higher figures are theoretically possible, but you'll find most domestic heat-pump users will be happy to be in the 3-4 range.

At the moment it runs 00:30 to 03:30 to provide 250 litres of hot water for 5/6 kWh at 5p. On the Go tariff my heating costs will work out to £650 for 12 months.

If you are still on a version of 'Go' with a 5p rate then you do indeed have cheap electricity all day, the current version of 'Go' is not as good.

For me, on 'Go' it used to be 14.12p/5p/25p SC, now it would be 35.11p/7.5p/37.65p. It is still a good EV tariff, just not so good for day time consumption.

We will look at a heat-pump at some point as we do have solar PV and a Tesla Powerwall, and are currently on the Tesla Energy Plan (8p/kWh net metering, no SC) that price will go up a little later this year though.

It still isn't a simple calculation though as of course the Solar PV produces the least emery at the time when the heat-pump would need the most, in winter, but as long as the TEP continues we have the flat rate 'low' price for electricity 24/7.

Very roughly we could save around £700 a year with a heat-pump, at current gas/electric prices, but that is still a relatively long pay-back