I understand all the concern here - but what *exactly* would you want the warranty to say?

To be fair you are going to need to include the temperature ranges the car was kept at, how hard it was driven, how it was charged every time, how long it can be sat at any given state of charge, how many miles it's done and how old it is, including how long it sat before purchase.

Is it fair to warranty a car in a hot climate to the same level as one in a temperate climate?

This is a mine field. Nissan opted to pick the lowest possible, which is bad for people who look after their cars in a temperate climate.

Do people really believe that the consumer will accept all these terms and conditions on a warranty? This is like trying to warranty a set of tyres for a given range.

I, for one, would like something that at least codifies an expected degradation during the warranty period.

For the Model S, it's an eight year warranty, so, give acceptable drop in terms of each year or X miles of service REGARDLESS of operating condition(if they want to be granular) If the warranty is Infinite, then let's not exclude that.

As for the Roadster, codify the 2006 blog post that touted 30% after five years (or whatever the specs were) AND, more importantly, let purchasers under the Certified Pre-Owned program know that their "better than new" 37,000 mile and 37 month warranty includes that. However, if they don't do that, unfortunately those are the terms that we bought our cars under and it's our responsibility to have read and reacted to the exclusions at that time.

Let them spell it out, and let the market decide whether this is fair or unfair for each purchaser. As it is, I got blinded by the marketing of the coverage rather than actually understand all the coverage. I'm ticked off that I got bamboozled, but, at the end of the day, I still would have bought both Teslas. There is no comparison, and if paying more later happens, then I can always sell it and pick something else up.

 

For the Model S, it's an eight year warranty, so, give acceptable drop in terms of each year or X miles of service REGARDLESS of operating condition(if they want to be granular) If the warranty is Infinite, then let's not exclude that.

Any warranty that is regardless of operating condition is going to be completely useless to the vast majority of people. The end result is that every manufacturer will do like GM - you'll pay for, and carry around, battery that you are not allowed to use, however desperate you are. The manufacturer will want to protect themselves and will do so at your inconvenience.

This reminds me a lot of SLAs in the server hosting world. I actively seek out hosting companies that are honest and open about their network architecture rather than hiding behind an SLA. An SLA is all well and good, but it's just a piece of paper. I'm much happier if I can make my own judgement on the technologies used, because at the end of it an SLA or warranty is just about finance - not how useful or reliable the product actually is.

 

Often warranties differ from country to country and region to region, Tesla could go the same route as Nissan have done with a variance clearly stated that it would be percentage wise more generous to cars located in and operated in more temperate climates, it would certainly be a lot better that what they have now and the potential massive can of worms that has just opened, I am sure Tesla will address this for Model S owners, not so sure about the roadster owners though…sigh.

 

If the Nissan capacity warranty is anything to go by, I don't think it is of much value in the UK where battery degredation is likely to be well below the warranty threshold. The same is likely with any degredation Tesla may be willing to commit to.

Nice to have but not a massive issue unlike in the hot US states where the climate has led to faster than expected degredation.

Also, does BMW offer any degredation warranty on their i series cars (which I think have battery temperature management)?

 

If the Nissan capacity warranty is anything to go by, I don't think it is of much value in the UK where battery degredation is likely to be well below the warranty threshold. The same is likely with any degredation Tesla may be willing to commit to.

Nice to have but not a massive issue unlike in the hot US states where the climate has led to faster than expected degredation.

Also, does BMW offer any degredation warranty on their i series cars (which I think have battery temperature management)?

With regards to BMW i cars I'm not sure now. I was told by my local dealership that there is no specific capacity warranty but the warranty lasts for 7 years...
Some on this forum seem to think there is a capacity warranty so maybe he was not aware of this or others have presumed something.
I think regardless of whether individuals feel this is or isn't worth much, for the wider public it can only help if there are expectations set for a 'worst case scenario' capacity warranty.
As I said previously, having spent a lot of time at automotive proving grounds over the past few years, the amount of times I have seen Leaf's being driven and charging solely using CHadEMO surely suggests that they have acquired this data to know how quickly the cells can deteriorate.

Remember to those not concerned about this, as with any warranty, it is there to protect people who have cars malfunction on them. The car shouldn't break, but when they do thats what warranties are there fore to give peace of mind. This is surely the same with battery degradation, with the figures that I would be happy to see from the manufacturers, I do not expect many people to fall under the 'eligible for replacement' banner but for those who do, it means a heck of a lot. Its not there for people who just use the car a lot, the figures should be below that level of degradation. It should be there to save people from sheets of batteries malfunctioning, or the thermal management system malfunctioning and cooking cells or a whole host of other potential, although perhaps very unlikely, problems.

Once with a VW Golf I had, the gearbox broke and it was stuck in 3rd gear. Now I have never heard of this happening to anyone else I know and trust me many of my friends should break cars the way they drive! To me though the VW warranty kicked in and they replaced the gearbox and I was a happy customer. Occasionally problems happen and we are all aware of that, its how the problem is resolved that makes a difference, so a clear warranty for degradation will surely help to give a clear situation.

 

I agree that some level of degredation should be specified - however if it is likely to be set at a level for which your car would not qualify for a battery replacement - would you be Ok with that?

This isn't really about me and my car... Tesla need a degradation warranty to cover Model S today and future products like the Model X and "400" mile Roadster battery.

If my car isn't covered by any new warranty then I'd be disappointed for all the existing Roadster owners but not surprised given our cars are 'old'.

 

In which case presumably if Tesla offered something along the lines offered by Nissan i.e. 34% degredation over 5 years / 60k miles this would be acceptable?

Absolutely, hence my point that they must know worst case scenarios for real world driving.
This cannot be a warranty level that people 'try to reach' so they can get a new battery for free, its got to be at a level where its only activated if something out of the ordinary happens and there is a fault in the cells or the battery is seeing bizarre sudden degradation for whatever reason.

 

Absolutely in my opinion!
I would be very happy with that, as it gives a clear stance. If for any reason you experience more degradation than that, then its because something is wrong rather than you have just driven it hard...

 

I doubt it - this is one instance. Once the general public know the facts they'll ignore it. One thing Tesla are very good at is explaining the facts - looking forward to their response.

I wasn't talking about Kevin's case, i was talking about the lack of battery degradation warranty on Teslas

 

Which hasn't been an issue for anyone that I can find. Do you have an example of a Tesla that is below the Nissan warranty level?

I don't accept that Tesla will allow their cars to become paperweights (that's just not good business). I do accept that degradation is a very hard thing to warranty for and should be treated on a case by case basis.

 

[An original of this post was done at teslamotorsclub.com, I have copied it here to cover concerns regarding Tesla's lack of a Battery Degradation Warranty in their current Agreements. This thread is NOT meant to discuss @Kevin Sharpe particulars nor his Roadster, it is intended to discuss Tesla's current exclusion of battery degradation in their product.]

In order to be more accurate in representation of what I believe the user community should be asking of Tesla and to expound on concepts that I wrote on a post in my blog.

Clarification for each iteration of the battery helps purchasers understand their responsibilities better. Tesla's Model S Infinite Warranty made great headlines, however it was somewhat misleading with regard to degradation and it's exclusion with regard to the Model S.

In the end, I don't think it really matters to most of us the specifics of Kevin's car or case. What should matter is that Tesla should specify with regard to the Model S and future batteries, Model X, Model 3, AND the purported 400 mile battery an actual expected degradation guidance and what that guidance should be.

Furthermore, I would like it if Tesla would provide some warranty based upon that guideline for replacement under warranty AND a price list if the customer wishes to get a pack that is "newer" or refurbished to a higher capacity than their own aged/degraded battery pack. (i.e. if a particular Tesla owner is only getting 65 kWh on their 85 kWh pack, and the currently unavailable guidance from Tesla specifies that a pack is failed if it is at 30% or lower (59.5 kWh) then the customer should be given a price to bring the pack back to 85 kWh (hopefully with credit for the remaining 6.5 kWh or a pro-rata thereof.)

The Battery Swap demonstration over a year ago took some of these thoughts into consideration over a year ago. Elon mentioned that Tesla knew how good the customer's packs were and that if a customer were to keep the "swapped" pack, then they would just charge the customer for the difference. (so, let's do that with regard to a warranty.)

Though I bought into the hype of the Infinite Mile battery warranty for my S85, I am now questioning the disingenuous nature of that marketing and it's specific exclusions. However, as an owner, if they choose not to do something about it, I'm just stuck until my car's range is "unusable". Which in my case becomes the range of a BMW i3 BEV (i.e. A very long time). However, such a range and the distance between Superchargers will render one of the reasons that I purchased a Model S somewhat moot.

Sadly, the topic for me remains as a request for Tesla to clarify and enhance the future battery warranty AND, if possible, the Roadster Warranty for e different classes (those that are original owners who may still be under a warranty and those of us who are under the CPO warranty, as well as those that are no longer warranted).

 

I want to see Tesla and other EV manufacturers adopt a tiered warranty like that on my solar PV.

They have a year by year stepped guarantee of output rather than one big drop off at the end.

 

They have a year by year stepped guarantee of output rather than one big drop off at the end.

That's an interesting example, but solar PV is a lot more predictable than battery degradation where user behaviour can have the largest impact.

The 'expected' capacity is really the result of a complex formula involving a lot of inputs - not just simple miles-driven or direct age of car. How do you reflect that in a stepped system other than taking the Nissan approach of the worst possible case?

 

I think there could be an opportunity here for a smart/some smart insurance firms to offer third party battery warranties, as they do GAP and other forms of insurance.

 

Extending this thought process a little, I would consider GAP insurance on range differences between a predicted remaining range after 3 year and actual remaining range, specifically wrt the impact it has on resale.

Clearly Kevin's car would be worth less on the open market than an identical car that hadn't experienced such a level of battery degradation.

 

Reposting from the other thread:

I'm not sure it's such a great model as it does not provide for a restoration of the battery pack back to 100% of a new battery, only to 70% once it fall below 66% of new capacity. Anyone who needs more than 70% battery capacity may not be able to use the car as required even if they have a valid warranty claim.

Again, I don't think it is such a big issue in the UK as the warranty threshold is unlikely to be breached withing the warranty period/mileage.

Kevin Sharpe said: ↑
All of the Nissan drivers I know seem happy that they have a degradation warranty. Are they not a good model for what works?

 

That's why I'm saying they should provide a battery degradation curve and warranty that tracks it.

My previous comment was in response to Smartie.

sorry, my mistake... fully agree

 

But the Nissan warranty doesn't do that and is being help up a model that would work for most people.

That's why I'm saying they should provide a battery degradation curve and warranty that tracks it.

My previous comment was in response to Smartie.

 

To be fair you are going to need to include the temperature ranges the car was kept at, how hard it was driven, how it was charged every time, how long it can be sat at any given state of charge, how many miles it's done and how old it is, including how long it sat before purchase.

Warranties aren't used to ensure fairness. Warranties are used to set the minimum expectations for the customer which will be honoured by the manufacturer. Tires (or tyres) and brakes are also subject to wear-and-tear subject to usage, and yet manufacturers of those components will warrant them for a stated number of miles and time. This isn't done to be fair. This is done to assure the customer of expectations.

That Tesla offers its customers no expectations with regard to battery degradation is simply uncool.

Any warranty that is regardless of operating condition is going to be completely useless to the vast majority of people. The end result is that every manufacturer will do like GM - you'll pay for, and carry around, battery that you are not allowed to use, however desperate you are. The manufacturer will want to protect themselves and will do so at your inconvenience.

Such sensationalism! I have not heard from any Volt/Ampera owner that they are *inconvenienced* by the design - quite the opposite, in fact. While there may be some limited truth to the usage window being conservative to avoid apparent degradation it also is likely that this was done to reduce actual degradation as well since degradation is more-pronounced at the far ends of actual SOC.

 

Warranties aren't used to ensure fairness. Warranties are used to set the minimum expectations for the customer which will be honoured by the manufacturer. Tires (or tyres) and brakes are also subject to wear-and-tear subject to usage, and yet manufacturers of those components will warrant them for a stated number of miles and time.

I don't think I've ever been offered a distance warranty for a tyre - do you have a link so we can compare the terms?

Every warranty like this I can find just guarantees against manufacturing defects over a 'lifetime' - much like the Tesla warranty does. No mention of guaranteeing it will last that long due to wear and tear.

 

I would like to see some data on the degradation and battery health from the Model S on the road. If the car is always connected I'm guessing it sends back all that sort of data to Tesla?

 

Very interesting post on TMC regarding the warranty and a must read for all prospective and existing Model S owners;

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...nt-and-future-battery-degradation-warranty/page4?p=756113&viewfull=1#post756113

 

Its almost like a scam, whilst Tesla offering infinite mileage warranty on the battery, which would lured potential buyers a false sense of security but in fact, it excludes battery degradation.

I agree. It is very misleading. The fact that Tesla advertises unlimited mile battery warranty makes people think they don't have anything to worry about. When people look at details I marked below, what do they think? They might think something like "I won't drive 125.000 miles in 8 years. So that works for me". They might think, "Because I will get the 85, I don't have to worry about the battery".

I don't like pointing out only problems without offering a solution. I think a possible solution for Tesla would be to change that text to the following:

• 8 year, unlimited battery failure and drive unit warranty
• Up to 125.000 miles, mileage dependent battery degradation warranty

I used the term 'battery failure' because this is what it is. A big part of the misunderstanding is the incorrect wording. Their current warranty covers only failure but the wording doesn't reflect that. For battery degradation I wrote what I think would be the ideal solution. Considering that Tesla has liquid cooling, their battery shouldn't degrade to 70% only after 60.000. So I changed that to 125.000 miles, same as battery failure warranty for the S60.

But that wouldn't be enough to be the ideal solution because from Kevin's experience we know that he started having problems only 16 months after he bought the car. For any owner it would be disappointing if the range dropped a lot suddenly instead slowly over time but was still above the 70% threshold.

One possible solution is to divide the 30% by years. If the battery can degrade up to 30% in 8 years, then in one year it can degrade up to 30/8= 3.75%, 7.5% in two, 11.25% in three and 15% in four years and so on. But this wouldn't work because then some people could intentionally drive their car a lot to get a new battery before the warranty is over. Like somebody said above, this should be a level unachievable by normal use. I think therefore it makes sense to base the percentages on mileage. That part could be explained with a chart. The page could say something like this:

"At Tesla we want our customers to have a great ownership experience which is why we created an industry leading battery degradation warranty to give them piece of mind. This warranty guarantees capacity and range, depending on miles driven. As an example, if you have a Tesla Model S 85 and you drive it 30.000 miles, our warranty guarantees that your range will be 245 miles or more after a range charge which is 92.8% of the original EPA rated range".

This is what Tesla should do if their focus is widespread adoption of electric cars. It would create peace of mind and it would be something really impressive for them to do. I think their approach to battery degradation undermines their mission. Do you want to drive a Tesla and risk having battery problems or do you want a petrol car and avoid issues? People are already worried about electric car batteries. For once I wish Tesla would fix an issue before it is all over the media.

 

Wow, you really have fallen deep into this, haven't you @Teo?

Let me ask: how many ICE manufacturers warranty the MPG of their cars?
Or the emissions?
Or even the BHP?

Just like EV batteries, all feature predominately in marketing material, all get worse over time, all have financial implications. You may never even get the advertised BHP or MPG out of a brand new car.

In the spirit of balance, I think you now need to complain to the ASA about Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, Vauxhall, Mazda, Fiat, Jaguar, Land Rover, Nissan, etc, etc, etc. for their blatantly misleading websites.

We should contribute this amazing "no s*** Sherlock" revelation to the Sunday press as well.

"Rising emissions forcing change to BEV"

 

There's an easy solution for Tesla; reduce the "visible" capacity of the battery so that any early degredation is "invisible" to the user (as I believe some others have said other manufacturers do). So we all start off with a lower range from new and our batteries miraculously never lose range. (I don't like this solution at all!)

I'm sure I read somewhere that 80% range remaining at the end of the (then) 4 year warranty period would be reasonable. I even had it in my head that this was warranteed, so I must be one of the many who didn't read the actual warranty before committing to purchase.

As others have said, I really can't believe Tesla would let hundreds or even thousands of people experience poor battery life without helping out; it would kill them, surely?

I assume Tesla must be collecting battery information for all cars on the road, they are in an excellent position to utilise that data and provide feedback to current and potential users regarding battery life. If battery life is prooving exceptional, then it would further boost sales. Unless, of course, merely mentioning battery degradation is a salesman's nightmare.

 

I think that no one would need an MPG warranty on an ICE because although it does vary over time it is never that far from what is acceptable or expected. Even if ICE MPG does drop there is nearly always a reason and a remedy. I don't think comparing MPG and battery capacity is a valid comparison.

 

I think the no one would need an MPG warranty on an ICE because although it does vary over time it is never that far from what is acceptable or expected. Even if ICE MPG does drop there is nearly always a reason and a remedy. I don't think comparing MPG and battery capacity is a valid comparison.

Exactly, if your mpg dropped by 30% you'd want it fixed - and the chances are it would be covered by warranty (faulty injectors perhaps). The fact that the battery pack is a much bigger and more expensive component doesn't excuse the fact that it would no longer be delivering what was expected.

 

The other thing we are missing is viable re-manufacturing of the battery packs. We know roughly speaking a brand new 85 pack costs $45,000 (gulp)

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ws/1089183_life-with-tesla-model-s-battery-upgrade-from-60-kwh-to-85-kwh/page-3

How likely is it all 16 internal modules have dropped capacity? Is it more likely one or 2 have failed bringing the overall packs range down?

Replacing one module at $4k is a much different proposition. If aftermarket suppliers get involved, I'd expect the price to fall even further.

 

A little gedankenexperiment. Let's say you bought a new F430 convertible in 2008 for £140k and you have duly paid the £3,500/year to extend the warranty every year from 2012.

The car officially does 15mpg. It has a 21g tank, giving a max range of 315 miles.

Six years later, in 2014, you realise that the car is only getting 252 miles out of a tank after just 50,000 miles. A 20% reduction! You take it back to Ferrari, who investigate and eventually come back to you with "this is fair wear and tear". What do you expect their next statement to be?

a) As you bought the extended warranty, we will replace the engine, gearbox and exhaust system for free, even though there is no MPG or range provision in the warranty.

b) There is no MPG or range provision in the warranty. You will need to pay us to replace the engine, gearbox and exhaust system to get the car back to the original spec. As we no longer build these cars, you will have to wait until we can source the components. There is no guarantee that the car will meet specification after this work, just as there was no guarantee that the car met specification when you bought it.

c) This is not something we can fix. However, as a goodwill gesture, we can offer you a new Ferrari at cost price.

d)...?

 

I don't think that really works here, the MPG realised by the driver is based on the way they drive, it's under their control. The amount of electricity that goes into a battery is not.

 

MPG / range is about the energy that comes out.

The driver can affect either by driving style, but the driver has no control over mechanical / chemical wear and tear.

 

Just to be clear, no battery degradation warranty exists for the Tesla Roadster or Model S today.

We do know that 20% of Tesla Roadsters in the PiA study have had their battery packs replaced under the 'good will' system. Unfortunately, the lack of Roadster spare parts has forced Tesla to change their policy on pack replacement and I'm probably the first person to experience the fallout from that.

I believe Tesla must implement a battery degradation policy to protect current Model S and future customers. I would like to see some protection for 'old' Roadster owners if for no other reason than to prevent years worth of bad PR as these cars become unrepairable.

 

I believe Tesla must implement a battery degradation policy to protect current Model S and future customers. I would like to see some protection for 'old' Roadster owners if for no other reason than to prevent years worth of bad PR as these cars become unrepairable.

It is worrying, the long term viability of a car is dependant on ongoing ability to keep it on the road. Rover have been bust ages, but you can still keep one on the road easily.

For Tesla to survive they have to prove their cars are maintainable for a long period of time (past warranty). If your battery does fail catastrophically, irrespective of who pays to get it fixed, how long until you could get a replacement?

I'm guessing they don't have any in stock here in the UK? What about in the US?
Are they even making them any more? Or just re-manufacturing on an "as needed basis"?
Are there local firms who could repair the pack by replacing individual cells ?

I suppose until there is sufficient volume of cars (when the 3 comes along ?) to support a 3rd party repair network, we are stuck with Tesla, and whatever prices they want to charge.

 

Battery warranty issue in the mainstream press - Sunday Times, "repeat to fade: the cloud on the horizon of a bright electric future"

 

Poo

I'm going to waste hours next week now with people mocking my choice of car no doubt....

It started off with fires, then constant jibes about running out of electricity, then the whole "Swampy eco warrior" thing now this...

Of course Audi, Mercedes Benz and Porsches are, according to my colleagues, perfect and you'd need to be mental to buy anything else

 

Engines sometimes need a rebuild, it's the same for battery in some ways. No one wants to rebuild a engine or repair a battery as it all costs money. Don't feel down about your car, your a lucky man to have one and at least your not polluting my children's air with a Porsche