Are you sure that the low temperature is not the cause of the slower charge rate? You will probably find the batteries charge faster when warmer as the IR (Internal Resistance) goes up when cold and is lower when warm.

From Charging at High and Low Temperatures

Li ion can be fast charged from 5°C to 45°C (41 to 113°F). Below 5°C, the charge current should be reduced, and no charging is permitted at freezing temperatures because of the reduced diffusion rates on the anode. During charge, the internal cell resistance causes a slight temperature rise that compensates for some of the cold. The internal resistance of all batteries rises when cold, prolonging charge times noticeably.

 

Erm... You believe that the video shows the charge rate being limited due to low temperature of the battery?

First Charge:

Second Charge:

Third Charge:

 

It seems pretty clear that charge speed is being throttled back as battery temperature increases in the new Leaf.

I don't actually care about the battery getting warm and reducing lifespan. Unless you are doing 300 miles every day it's something that's only going to happen a few times a year so it's probably not significant in terms of battery degradation.

Battery temperature in itself is not the issue. This issue is the charge speed being throttled as the battery warms. That is a clear problem if you are planning to use the new Leaf as your primary vehicle with no ICE backup and you want to undertake long trips.

The range of the new Leaf is sufficient that I was considering getting rid of our ICE. I'm happy to charge up every 100 miles or so if I take a long trip to Scotland or Cornwall. What I would not be happy about is having to wait the 1.5 hours it's going to take to get to 80% charge at 22kW.

 

Sorry Matt I hadn't seen the video, I was just wondering why the battery was slow to charge and I know they don't like being cold, like Goldilocks they have to be just right .

Looks like battery cooling is required unless there is a break-in period for the battery but this seems unlikely.

 

One solution perhaps worth trying on a motorway trip is to ease off a little before arriving at the charger to allow time for the battery to cool off with the airflow. That might help its temperature to drop to around normal and charge as it should. Maybe not wholly ideal, but would possibly gain time in the long run if it works with the faster charge rate.
@aaronr and/or @Leo Moran does the charge rate shown on the display change as the charge progresses, or is it just showing the charge rate when the charge is initiated? If the latter, this debate might be something about nothing!

 

The charge rate displayed does change as charge progresses. You can see it ramp up at around 30:20 in my last YouTube video (blink and you'll miss it though!), and you can watch it ramp down if you watch it closely enough too (not sure if I captured that in the video though). If you skip earlier in the video when I'm on my first rapid charge you can see the charge slow down as the battery fills.

 

Annoyed at myself for not capturing the initial charge speed when I used that ABB charger in Stockton in the previous episode. Will definitely have to run the battery down soon so I can go back and check it out again.

 

Gents, "The current is controlled by the vehicle ECU. Fast charger controls the output current according to the charging current request from the EV through CAN communication on a real-time basis. This mechanism allows for different fast charging based on battery performance and usage environment"
Technology Overview – Chademo Association

 

Gents, "The current is controlled by the vehicle ECU. Fast charger controls the output current according to the charging current request from the EV through CAN communication on a real-time basis. This mechanism allows for different fast charging based on battery performance and usage environment"
Technology Overview – Chademo Association

Thanks for that. In that case it wouldn't be the first time Nissan have had a problem with the ECU ! Wasn't it an ECU issue that delayed supplies of the 30kWh Leaf? Is history repeating itself?
It does need another test though as this concern is being based on a sample of one journey. Hardly conclusive evidence of an inherent problem!

@aaronr how did that black Tesla leaving Ferrybridge at the same time as you vanish into thin air? You pulled out, turned round and there was no trace of it!

 

Erm....sorry, perhaps I'm not the right person to give advice on batteries but I'll give my observations anyway.

I don't look at the temperature as I'm sure Nissan have provided a fail safe device which will prevent numpties like me damaging the battery. I've only used two rapid chargers with the new LEAF, one at Newton St Boswell twice and one Nissan at Edinburgh, both I've used before and both gave a charge at the same rate, all be it 25% more. As for batteries getting warm, last August we drove 999 miles in 2 days. We recharged 17 times, mostly splash and dash but a few 80-100% charges and though it reached 11 bars on the temperature gauge, it accepted every charge and doesn't appear to have caused any damage the rest of the time. When I part exchanged it, it still had 12 bars on the health check.

In short, I don't see there being any problem with the charging, it does what it says on the can.

 

Erm....sorry, perhaps I'm not the right person to give advice on batteries but I'll give my observations anyway.

I don't look at the temperature as I'm sure Nissan have provided a fail safe device which will prevent numpties like me damaging the battery. I've only used two rapid chargers with the new LEAF, one at Newton St Boswell twice and one Nissan at Edinburgh, both I've used before and both gave a charge at the same rate, all be it 25% more. As for batteries getting warm, last August we drove 999 miles in 2 days. We recharged 17 times, mostly splash and dash but a few 80-100% charges and though it reached 11 bars on the temperature gauge, it accepted every charge and doesn't appear to have caused any damage the rest of the time. When I part exchanged it, it still had 12 bars on the health check.

In short, I don't see there being any problem with the charging, it does what it says on the can.

What you are saying is that your previous car was quite capable of charging 17 times in one day. The video from @aaronr suggests twice in one day might be pushing it and by the third charge you will no longer be "rapid" charging, just blocking the charger for more capable cars.

I was about to order a Leaf 2.1 Tekna, but I have e-mailed my dealer today telling him that the order is off unless he is able to arrange a test-drive long enough to contain two rapid charges.

 

Actually an ECU is the Engine Control Unit. The Leaf doesn't have an engine to control ?
How can that be anything to do with charging an EV?
Engine control unit - Wikipedia
So surely it must be a Charging Control Unit, a CCU, not an ECU ? !
Charge controller - Wikipedia

Now I can appreciate that a charge controller would oversee the power supplied by an EVSE for level 2 charging, but to my knowledge, the car reports its status through the Chademo connector allowing the charger to determine from that information what power to deliver to the car. See paragraph 2: DC Fast Charging Explained - EV Safe Charge
DC fast charging (also know as Level 3 charging), on the contrary, connects directly to the car’s battery, allowing the off-board equipment to have any power needed. DC charging is capable of charging to 80% the electric vehicle’s battery in less than 20 minutes for most cars, making the EV charging process much faster than the normal charging process.
The process for level 3 charging is different to level 2 in that the charge controller is in the charger, and isn't the one for level 2 in the car.
Even on that Chademo page linked to several posts back it shows the control lines to be on the charger side. The car in reality acts dumb during a rapid charge just reporting the battery state to the charger (and in the case of Gen 1 2011-13 Leafs over reported it to the charger making it impossible for it to hit 100%.)
The ABB posts show a notice to the effect, "Car is reporting the charge level at XX%". and state how long the charge will take. The DBT posts don't seem quite so versatile with regard to this..

 

Actually an ECU is the Engine Control Unit. The Leaf doesn't have an engine to control ?

ECU actually stands for "Electronic control unit", eg any computer module in a car, of which there are many. An EV is loaded with just as many ECU's as an ICE.

 

Certainly looking more like Ecoticity need to update their Electric Highway to accomodate the Leaf 40kw as John has stated. They can certainly whack 20kw charge into 30kw Leaf in 30 mins as I've been on the recieving end! Are there any 40kw owners happy to raise this with Ecotricity?

 

I know I know nothing about the chargers, some time ago I saw a video which stated the LEAF 2 had a CHAdeMO which took 150KWh but the UK one charges at 50KWH. I've just watched the latest Transport Evolved video where Vicki Gordon-Bloomfield drives the American version and has again repeated that the American car charges at 150KWh. I'm just wondering if the UK one does or not. Now I know that there are a lot of differences to the suspension and a few other things as well, plus the demonstrators will have been made in Japan as the European press cars were, so early spec cars are not like the production models but she must have been driving a completely different car to what I am cause her reaction was not in line with mine.....getting back to the chargers, I ask because by the end of this year all the Ecotricity chargers in the UK are going to be capable of delivery 350KWh (I believe) and would speed up the charge on the new LEAF if that was the case.

 

getting back to the chargers, I ask because by the end of this year all the Ecotricity chargers in the UK are going to be capable of delivery 350KWh (I believe) and would speed up the charge on the new LEAF if that was the case.

Updated DBT chargers would be the answer. It would definitely be worth repeating the charging test using ABB chargers such as those in Lidl with the opportunity to pick up a bit of shopping in the process.
As to 150kW charging, that would relate to the 60kWh 2019 Leaf.which should have active cooling of the batteries (or else it would probably blow up at that rate!)
A thought on the EcoT rapids. Could some have been turned down to ensure less electricity was supplied in what was until recently charging by time?

 

None of the Ecotricity DBT rapids will do more than 43kW AFAIK.

Chademo is limited by both current and voltage. Do we know what the voltage of the 40kWh Leaf is, "full" and "empty"?

It depends on how high the voltage is before the car requests a current taper.

The DBT rapids are mostly set to current limit at 106A.

 

It depends on how high the voltage is before the car requests a current taper.

The DBT rapids are mostly set to current limit at 106A.

There are quite a lot of different limits aren't there?

1 - Power supply to the rapid itself - have always assumed the EH/DBT units to have 64A 3-phase giving an absolute max of 44kW
2 - Voltage - determined by the nominal voltage of the car battery and its state of charge - the chademo spec supports up to 500V but (afaik) the vehicles we drive in the real world max out at 400V fully charged - and some (low-end Teslas for instance) max out at 350V.
3 - Current - limited by charger, car, or both - the spec limit is 125A, the DBTs won't ever go over 106A.

Some installs have less power available and are limited to (eg) 22kW (3-phase 32A?) and the chargers can limit current for many reasons eg charger overheating.

Probably there are other limits? There has in the past been a comprehensive explanation on this site of all the various different limits the DBT crap imposes, which I now can't find.

 

Question to Aaron, at the time you charged the car were you alone or was there a second car charging next to you? I ask because if two cars are charging on the same or adjoining units it has been mentioned at the time that there is only one feed to a double unit and therefore it would slow down the delivery...

 

Question to Aaron, at the time you charged the car were you alone or was there a second car charging next to you? I ask because if two cars are charging on the same or adjoining units it has been mentioned at the time that there is only one feed to a double unit and therefore it would slow down the delivery...

Chargers next to me were empty. While I was at the third rapid in Ferrybridge a Renault Zoe pulled up after a while and did a quick charge from an adjacent unit for maybe 15 minutes but it didn’t seem to affect my charge speed.

 

I checked on PlugShare and the chargers giving 27kW and 22kW both had reports from Leaf drivers of it charging at 106A

By my man maths I make 106A equal to 23kW, the figure Aaron achieved there. I wonder why those were so slow?!

 

How do you get to that figure?

Last time I charged on a rapid it started at 371V and 106A, which is about 39kW.

 

Something to do with supply limitations at the site perhaps?

 

Quite possibly.

 

Just as a comparison, currently on a long run in the 30kw Leaf, at the 4th concurrent charge I have arrived at Abington Ecot charger with 8% Battery charge(I ignore the GOM waste of time) 7 bars on batt temp guage, the charger has just put in over 21kw in 30 mins so back up to 82%. This equates to a charging rate of 43kw approx.

 

Not done loads of rapids but from memory Ecotricity max out at 106 A and voltage fluctuates around mid 300s to a high I have seen of 396v.

P = I x V so 37kW up to 42kW as I think the max voltage is 396v.
That's why I would be interested in seeing the Ecotricity screen when the charge rate is throttled back.

Is it a reduced voltage or current that is limiting it? Could it be misreporting? I don't know enough about the way the protocols communicate and which dictates which.

 

I’ll just add one other example of the 30Kwh for comparison.
In December I took a 450ish mile round trip from Staines to pick something up from Cheshire in a day. Rapid charged 5 times to approx 95% at Warwick, Stafford, Nantwich, Warwick and finally Beaconsfield.
The final charge took battery temp one bar short of the red, but the car still took 15.4kwh in 22mins = 42kw. The temp dropped back a bar on the final leg thankfully.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I checked on PlugShare and the chargers giving 27kW and 22kW both had reports from Leaf drivers of it charging at 106A.


DBT don't do this power-sharing. The only way they can share outputs is to permanently limit each output to 22kW (a config setting that apparently needs an engineer visit). Ecotricity told me that they decided that they would not configure any of their DBT chargers this way.

Sorry don't understand, what's a DBT? As for sharing, most of the chargers I have used (never used Ecotricity) have been in Scotland and Northumberland and some allowed me to use the CHAdeMO at the same time as someone else using the Type 2 cable from the same device.

 

DBT are the company that make the chargers used by Ecotricity, Nissan and occasionally by some of the other charging companies.

Apparently Nissan did the original design work, to provide a charger specifically tailored for their upcoming Leaf, and passed this to a private company to make the units. I dare say that the deal included provision for Nissan to get very favourable pricing for any units they bought. Nissan installed them at lots of their dealers and also donated a large number to Ecotricity to form a motorway charging network. It is sad that these chargers seem incapable of charging even the 24Kwh and 30kWh Leafs at full rate!

 

DBT are the manufacturers of the EcoT chargers, they only support single use regardless of the number of cables.

 

They can be configured to serve AC and DC at the same time (I've used several in France) but they either require a) the rate to be permanently set at 22kW for AC and DC, or b) an 88kW input supply.

Ecotricity have said, rightly so, that they won't half the charge rate, and most of their chargers (though not all) only have a 44kW supply.

 

I came across the following on a Japanese forum last night, it is not looking good:

Blog｜EVオーナーが語る現実派サイト｜EVオーナーズクラブ

Google translate:

Kyushu Yoshika Drive Pass 2017 (4 days for 8,000 yen high speed all-you-can-eat), we have been testing highway driving test of the new type leaf.
I ran about 1,500 km in 4 days.

The electricity cost when traveling on a highway is 8.0 km / kWh when traveling 80 km, 7.0 to 7.5 when traveling 100 km, 6.5 to 7.0 when running on a flow, the electricity cost drops as the speed increases.
The electricity cost when running down the suburbs of the lower road at 60 km was about 8.5 - 9.0.

The longest running distance ran at speed limit (about half of it was 80 km, cruise control ON) and it was 255 km. The rest was 29 km.

The remaining battery warning warning came out in the remaining 9%, 25 to 30 km.
The remaining distance was - - km display, the remaining 3%, 9 - 10 km was about.

At the time of the initial type leaf, there was considerable leeway since the battery became less, but it seems that the new model can only run the remaining distance as shown.

---
This test proved very disappointing.

The amount of charge in the quick charger can be very small.

The rapid charge of 30 minutes was totaled 12 times, but the increment of the battery remaining amount increased by + 21%, 24, 26, 26, 30, 34, 36, 43, 46, 49, 50, 55% did.
The charge amount of 30 minutes was 8.5, 9.4, 9.6, 10.7, 12.6, 17.4, 17.4, 18.2 kWh in ascending order except the three chargers for which the charge amount is not displayed.

I think that 18.2 kWh will be full of the performance of a 40 kW charger. Only the half of the battery of the new type leaf can be charged.
I would like to have a 150 kW super high speed charger installed in high speed SA and Nissan stores.

In a miserable case, it entered only + 24%, 9.6 kWh in 30 minutes. (Charging amount unknown in the case of + 21%)
Instead of charging, I started departing with + 52%, 18.1 kWh in 60 minutes.
This is the same as the state of charge at the end of the initial type leaf.

Also, even with the same charger, the charge amount was different by +77%, + 55%, + 34%.

There was an article saying that someone's blog has a high battery temperature when running at a high speed, and the amount of charge that can be charged decreases.
Even in my driving test, the increment of the remaining battery power when I charge 5 times in Oita - Nagasaki round trip (500 km) is gradually decreasing to + 50%, 36, 26, 24, 21%, respectively.

For Nissan's technology, it is said that battery cooler is unnecessary, but in reality, it is disappointing and disappointing that the amount that can be charged extremely decreases when running at high speed for long distances .

I would like to ask for improvement.

 

I came across the following on a Japanese forum last night, it is not looking good:

Blog｜EVオーナーが語る現実派サイト｜EVオーナーズクラブ

Google translate:

 

I was surprised at how few miles Aaron got from an 80% charge.

 

I found that in the summer my 30kW Leaf was throttling the charge rate after the third rapid charge. This was driving through a moderately warm France. The first three charges ran at a max of 106A. After charge number three, the temperature bar hit just below the red, with the next two rapid charges being restricted to 88A. This seemed to prevent the temperature going into the red. By charge number six, the temperature had dropped a bar and the charge rate was pushed back to 106A.

If that was the situation with the 30kW then what people are seeing here with the 40kW makes perfect sense. 40kW is a dense pack to install without any thermal management - I'm not surprised it gets hot very quickly.

 

So instead of putting in proper thermal management that even the el cheapo zoe manages Nissan decide just to throttle the charging speed instead?

I can see a good time trial race between a 22kWh zoe and a 40 kwh leaf to see which is better.

It may actually be worse in winter as you have to charge more often. Perhaps in summer when a greater between charge distance is achievable it isn't such an issue?