10.5kwh of Pylontechs (3x US3000c) currently costs £1980, plus an Inverter of your choice @ sub £1000
Careful you don't loose sight of the wood for all those trees👍

 

Damn, prices have fallen since I bought mine! 3xUS3000C and a Sofar 3kW inverter came to £4700 including VAT 2 years ago. Last year I added a US5000, which cost £1300, the same as each US3000C a year earlier. They allow me to use almost all of my solar, so I don’t need to buy about 1000kWh, saving between £70 and £270 per year, and also allows me to use mostly off-peak, saving another £800. The £6000 I spent in total will be paid off in about 6 years, so it’s still worth it.

 

Have a look at some of the component retailers to get an idea of parts prices, there's quite a variation in pricing between the premium systems and the budget end of the market,

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We have six Pylontech US3000C battery packs (bought from ITS), plus a 3.6kW hybrid inverter. Been running for over three years now, no issues and has already paid back about half the investment.

 

@Jeremy Harris and @Cheshirecat: you guys missed one requirement: 'Have limited space and the install would need to be outside' That rules out anything like Pylontech you suggested unless you put them in IP68 enclosure.

I would personally suggest All-in-One from GivEnergy which can easily be integrated with IOG via for example Home Assistant. Any GivEnergy inverter with their separate batteries will do the job too.

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@Jeremy Harris and @Cheshirecat: you guys missed one requirement: 'Have limited space and the install would need to be outside' That rules out anything like Pylontech you suggested unless you put them in IP68 enclosure.

I would personally suggest All-in-One from GivEnergy which can easily be integrated with IOG via for example Home Assistant. Any GivEnergy inverter with their separate batteries will do the job too.

Our Pylontech system is inside a small shed outside, one of these: Garden Tool Store with Never-Leak Roof - 2ft wide

 

No offence Jeremy, but knowing your valuable contribution to this Forum I'm surprised you put the battery pack in such shed

 

Why? It's watertight, has a robust roof, and is ideal for the job. What's wrong with it?

 

I doubt you are able to have correct environmental conditions (highlighted in orange below) in such shed. IP20 rating means that such battery pack has no protection against ingress by moisture or liquids. I could agree you have adequate protection against liquids (i.e. rain etc.) in such shed but very limited against moisture

 

The shed exceeds IP 20 in reality, very easily. Remember that the the inverter and the battery packs generate heat all the time they are in use, so by simple physics they can never be cooler than their surroundings, so are extremely unlikely to ever attract condensation in use. Right now, for example:

Very obvious that this cannot possibly be a condensing environment, and this is during a pretty cold weather situation. In warmer weather the risk of reaching the dew point is way lower. The shed interior is sitting at around 9°C (can't get this off HA as it's only shown on the cooling fan thermostat display). The inverter is a very effective shed heater!

 

View attachment 203020

The shed interior is sitting at around 9°C (can't get this off HA as it's only shown on the cooling fan thermostat display). The inverter is a very effective shed heater!

I have no doubts the shed interior is heated by all this equipment. However 'Working Temperature' to me is the ambient temperature around the device. So if the outdoor temperature is 3C at the moment and you think shed interior is at 9C then Pylontech would be outside of their recommended working envelope for charging when is -6C ish outside. Rather unlikely in the UK (depends where you live) but not impossible. And LFP batteries don't like cold...

Sorry for derailing this thread...

 

Steering back to the topic, away from sheds, I see Fox have launched a low cost all in one system, looks like an outdoor unit which holds a number of rack type batteries, akin to an outdoor pylon type product. Most seem to come with a hybrid inverter but their website indicates an option with a plain battery inverter. Looks like it can be extended to 10kWh

Are hybrid inverters ok operating battery only without any solar connected?

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The other product which caught my eye was the Dura5 outdoor, because it's very thin, only 90mm deep so handy if you don't have much space

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Are hybrid inverters ok operating battery only without any solar connected?

Yes. I replaced our Sofar ME3000Sp with a hybrid Sofar HYD3600 a few weeks ago and at the moment it is running as an AC coupled inverter just as the ME3000SP was. The plan is to add another half dozen solar panels on the garage roof when the weather improves, and feed the DC to this inverter. Only difference is that the HYD3600 has a built in EPS contactor, the ME3000SP needed a separate one to interface with a transfer switch.

 

I paid £1350 for my last 15.5kWh Seplos mason kit - that’s very very cheap. The first one was £1900 about 6 months prior.

31kWh and an 8kW inverter now… need more solar though, much more.

10yrs ago I was buying used CALB 210aH cells from salvaged allied electric Peugeot Boxer vans, and they were close to £100 a cell on the used market. Prismatic LFP has become so cheap now, it’s brilliant.

 

How was the Seplos build, I was looking at doing one? Anything in the kit that need adding to, they seems to offer the best value per kWh on the market right now.

 

If you are in to DIY, then the suggestion from @HughF is the best. If you still want good value for money and simple installation then Pylontech are still the best.

It's always horses for courses, but both the Pylontech and Seplos Mason options have a strong following with a good reputation for reliability. If I was going to start again I'd go for the system that @HughF has suggested, but at the time I felt it was worth paying a bit more for a "plug and play" system. Depends very much on how willing anyone is to get into the nitty gritty of wiring a system up, with some emphasis on the risks associated with high current systems, as well as those associated with mains voltage equipment. None of this stuff is illegal, but it does need common sense and a healthy respect for the risks involved.

 

If you are in to DIY, then the suggestion from @HughF is the best. If you want value for money and simply installation then Pylontech are still the best.

It's always horses for courses, but both the Pylontech and Seplos Mason options have a strong following with a good reputation for reliability. If I was going to start again I'd go for the system that @HughF has suggested, but at the time I felt it was worth paying a bit more for a "plug and play" system. Depends very much on how willing anyone is to get into the nitty gritty of wiring a system up, with some emphasis on the risks associated with high current systems, as well as those associated with mains voltage equipment. None of this stuff is illegal, but it does need common sense and a healthy respect for the risks involved.

I was put off the pylontech by the fact I didn’t have space for a server rack in my porch. The mason vertical case fitted nicely back against the wall.

If I cover my roof in solar I might consider adding another 15kWh to the setup to bring me up to 45.

 

Any recommendations?

I have an early GivEnergy AC inverter and a 5.2 and 2.6 battery.

If I was doing it again I think I would avoid GE as you are tied into their eco system and their BMS at times have problems with management of two batteries.

If you have the skills certainly follow the advice above and don't use GE.

What is actually key is how the BMS works with multiple batteries and the support if things go wrong.

So I would do due diligence on those things.

My problems with the batteries tend to occur when I am playing the export game with Agile. Lots of charge / discharge seems to cause BMS issues.

If your use case is a simple charge up at night and steady discharge that causes less issues.

The other key point is to keep the BMS happy is to regularly fully discharge and recharge the system to keep it properly calibrated.

Finally it is better to have the system slightly under your requirement so you make best use of the money you spend.

 

+1 for due dillegence, i have a growatt system and although its been pretty foolproof I may have to scrap and start again due to the inverters 3kw output and max batt capacity being less than we need after having a heat pump, with hindsight should have got a system we can swap parts out like the inverter as our needs chsnged

 

Trying to guess the future is always tough and new technology can make original choices redundant.

Certainly if you think you might be going to increase electric usage then the inverter performance is key.

Battery tech is maturing but I still think we are perhaps on the bleeding edge for a few more years.

The GE systems have been rolled out to folk with little technical expertise and the GE forum is seeing an uptick in those with minimal knowledge trying to get to grips with faults and perceived faults because they don't understand the tech.

GE as a company is suffering growth pains and poor senior management as it grows. They have apparently lost a lot of help desk staff and have made poor release management choices that have compounded support issues.

 

Unfortunately there are lots of issues around companies not being as competent as they could be in this sector. Been the same for years, though. I used to regularly visit shows at the home build centre at Swindon, and there would pretty much always be one or two new solar, battery or heat pump suppliers there. Sadly very, very often their own knowledge of the products they were selling was very often limited, sometimes dangerously so. The home build forum I used to be on was full of observations like this.

One issue seems to be very often the manufacturers of imported kit (and most of it is imported) aren't great at providing detailed technical training and support to their agents. Just the language barrier alone is enough to cause challenges. I remember asking one UK supplier about the characteristics of their AC coupled battery inverter, specifically whether there was a N to PE link when it was running in off-grid mode. They couldn't tell me and couldn't get an answer from the manufacturer, either.

This is pretty fundamental to being able to use the system off-grid. In the end I went to their place and made some measurements on their demo rig. These showed that the supply was IT when in off-grid mode (just like EV V2L systems) and so an external N to PE link was needed in that mode. I made some changes to their demo rig (just added an additional contact block to the TS) and that made the unit safe to use on UK installations. The worrying thing is that this company had already installed a lot of these systems, all operating as IT when in off-grid mode. Not inherently dangerous, no different to using V2L, or a portable generator, but not as safe as it should be.

 

My Pylontech rack is smaller than a wine cooler
Its in my (attached) garage but would just as easily fitted in my Dining Room in the corner with a big house-plant on it.

 

Going local is always the best bet, may not be the cheapest initially, but you have a good chance of being able to get maintenance and service in years to come, from someone that understands the installation. The problem with the marketing companies that have sprung up to profit from grants etc is that very often they are much better at marketing and advertising than they are at the technical side. Often they just sub-contract the work out anyway, so you end up paying for two companies, rather than just one.

Always a challenge to find someone that's competent, though. I honestly don't know the best way to find someone, as the really good people often have no need to advertise, as they get more work than they can handle from word of mouth recommendation. Does make it hard to find them if you're outside that loop, though. What I did learn when building this house was that you can pick up on good people from other trades. For example I heard about a decorator from our plasterer (turned out to be very good indeed). In turn that led to a recommendation for a tiler who did an excellent job of laying loads of travertine flooring. In general, people won't recommend other trades who aren't that good, because it reflects badly on them if something goes wrong.

 

Has this thread yielded say a top 3 recommendation that people can review to see how they'll meet their needs/wants?
In terms of off-the-shelf solutions and not self-builds.

If I move house this year, which is a possibility, I will want to do this. If I don't, and instead do some fairly major refurbishment plus renovations to my current house, I will likely take the opportunity to refit my kit. Like @Thomas Carter, I have a Growatt hybrid inverter and batteries, which, whilst stable, are not suitable for my usage profile and energy changes since I originally had it all installed.

My shortlist is GivEnergy All-in-One with Gateway, Tesla Powerwall 3 with Gateway, or Pylontech US5000-B batteries with a suitable hybrid inverter but one I can integrate into Home Assistant.

GivEnergy and Tesla are fixed-capacity batteries, and I would need two of each to cover my capacity. With Pylontech I could start with 3 but crucially add more later (myself, no need to pay someone else to do an install) up to a maximum of 6 without much effort.

The only other item I have shortlisted to potentially replace one of my options is the Sigenergy SigenStor 5-in-1 but I've found no information on how well or otherwise that might integrate into Home Assistant.

Accepting a forum can often be more negative due to the nature of posts from people highlighting issues more than success, I am now less convinced GivEnergy is the right answer.

 

Accepting a forum can often be more negative due to the nature of posts from people highlighting issues more than success

Yep a fair point and I don't have a all-in-one from GE.

Based upon what I know now from when I first got the battery my personal view is if you have the skills go for the plyontech as you are in control and as long as HA remains supported (I think that is 100% a safe bet) then you can grow and adapt your solution.

For anyone without the skills I would go for Tesla as I think that company has better longevity.

GE would be 3rd choice but it is still a valid choice as the price might swing it for folk. GE is suffering growth pains as the company transitions from a start up to a large company. If the management can learn and adapt it could still be a good company....

 

It’s perhaps mostly about the inverter and its interface etc??
If you get a good inverter and gateway that is east to manage then it should make sense to have cheaper batteries. Problem maybe that the likes of GE and Tesla are tying you to their ecosystem, but other options may not offer the same level of features.

Is there a well sorted and featured high end inverter (Idk maybe solaredge) that’s compatible with 3rd party batteries (like pylon tech)? Is that going to be an available option?

 

It’s perhaps mostly about the inverter and its interface etc??
If you get a good inverter and gateway that is east to manage then it should make sense to have cheaper batteries. Problem maybe that the likes of GE and Tesla are tying you to their ecosystem, but other options may not offer the same level of features.

Is there a well sorted and featured high end inverter (Idk maybe solaredge) that’s compatible with 3rd party batteries (like pylon tech)? Is that going to be an available option?

I agree, especially about companies wanting to lock people in to their own proprietary systems. The option that @Leonids mentions is a good one. Victron kit is absolutely rock solid, been around for years and is highly respected by the off-grid community. It's also extremely versatile and can be used with a wide range of 48V batteries and will work with just about any control system, from it's own one to something like Home Assistant.

Rack batteries make a lot of sense for anyone who thinks they may need to change or upgrade their system, as being modular and working at a safe voltage they are an easy DIY change. My preference would be for Pylontech rack batteries, simply because I've been running six of them for over three years and they've been faultless.

 

We have a GE AC inverter and 15kWh of batteries, plus a separate PV inverter (on a FIT tariff).

If I was to do it all again it would be with Victron kit and a 30kWh Fogstar rack battery.

 

Good point on Victron - Could a Victron kit and Fogstar LiFePo4 cell kit be the cheapest DIY system you can get while still being fairly bombproof and high quality?

 

Victron kit is pretty good (I’ve used it before), as is Schneider (which was Xantrex, which was Trace), and Outback.

For a ‘performance per cm3 of physical space’ I’d probably suggest Sunsynk. Their 8kW unit is very capable. It has its issues, sure, but I would say it’s probably better than the Outback stuff I was using before.

Victron seem to be a bit limited on their mppt offerings, compared with the hybrid inverters.

 

Yes, Sunsynk would be my budget alternative to Victron.

 

FWIW, (and just to be clear this is not a recommendation!) the wiring regs do not apply to any SELV circuit, and 48V battery packs and all associated cabling and connections, switchgear, fuses etc fall into this category. When it comes to the LV side (mains voltage essentially) then although the wiring regs (currently BS7671:2018 Amndt 3) apply, no laws are broken by a competent person carrying out work in accordance with those regulations. The regs aren't law and no one can be prosecuted for failing to comply with them, although obviously it would be a bit mad not to. The only legal issue with DIY work on LV circuits is Part P of the building regulations, and they only apply in England and Wales (not Scotland, not sure about NI or the Isle of Man, etc). Furthermore, there is no legislation that stops a DIY'er from applying to their local building control body and requesting they certify compliance in accordance with Part P of the building regs, in the same way you might do if building an extension or fitting new windows.

The trade bodies try their damnedest to try and make things a closed shop, even to the extent of now refusing to allow retired members to do any work that falls under Part P down here. It's nothing less than protectionism, and extremely irritating for those who are retired, competent, have decades of experience and yet aren't allowed to wire a new circuit within their own home.

 

What’s the definition of a competent person? I don’t have any electrical training or qualifications, but I do have some experience, and researched thoroughly before doing the work. I consider myself competent, but I doubt that would stand up in a court of law.

 

Thank you all so much for your recommendations! The Dura5 and SigEnergy products seem to tick the boxes, however, documentation for the Dura5 is very light and conflicting - everyone selling it has it rated at IP65, but the online manual states IP20 (!). The problem with the SigEnergy is that the gateway is pretty large and would need to be wall mounted.

I also have a challenge in that the external wall I want to use has 90mm EWI installed, which will make it difficult to anchor a 140kg++ weight. Both solutions can be floor mounted but would need anchoring somehow...