Welcome Nibble, if you intends to keep for many years, then I would go for the best that I could afford, if you're only keeping it for 2-3 years, then I wouldn't bothered, unless £2500 meant nothing to you

 

The 90kwh battery is a new cell chemistry, which while it will have undergone plenty of internal testing is unproven on the road. You HAVE to have it for the PL upgrade, but why take that (tiny) risk if you don't need to?

Devils advocate, when you come to sell it in a couple of years time and the current offered capacities are 90kwh and 110kwh will be more difficult to sell an "obsolete" 85kwh car in the same way you might struggle to sell a 60kwh car today for what you consider to be a fair price?

 

Are you using the £1000 off referral?

 

Good call, forgot about that.
Please wait Nibble, Ill be picking up my car in 3 weeks time, use my referral link, you get an grand off!

 

I'll bite, Nibble. I'm tempted when the car is a year old, as long as part of the package includes altering the all important badge on the back

An additional usable 5kW/hr for the £2.5k is actually cheap storage at the moment for an EV.

 

An additional usable 5kW/hr for the £2.5k is actually cheap storage at the moment for an EV.

'Usable' being the operative word.

If you ever plan driving the full 300 miles, or whatever it is, and running it down to the last 5% then, yeah, it then becomes 'usable'.

I'll lay odds it is 5kWh of capacity that is never used. I wonder how many Model S owners have let themselves get into a situation with less than 15 miles showing?

 

Something tells me the 85 will be discontinued as soon as they run out of existing supplies.

That'll then see the 90 as the 'standard' on the car.

 

I have a referral code, if you haven't found one yet. With the referral, it is still £1,500 for an extra 12-15 miles range.

I know someone who is looking at a new car at the moment - he has an approx. 100 mile (each way) commute at motorway speeds, and no destination charging. The 90 would give him a reasonable buffer, whereas the 85's range would probably mean a motorway stop on the way home every day to give him a buffer in case of something like a diversion or having to use the car during the day.

In his case, the fuel savings virtually pay for the car so the 90 is a no-brainer.

 

whereas the 85's range would probably mean a motorway stop on the way home every day to give him a buffer

He prefers to stop and charge, than just drive a tad slower? hmm....

 

The 70D does not have the range for a regular journey I make. The 85 does but in winter with a bit of faffing around it might not. Supercharging on this route is not available or even if it became available it isn't an option I would want to have to take.

 

There are 3 primary benefits in my mind for a 90 kWh upgrade:

1) increased battery capacity
2) increased supercharger speed
3) longer calendar time before hitting the same level of degradation that might affect the usability of the car, years from now

#1 is obvious and can be easily calculated. If you regularly travel beyond the Supercharger network, then it can quite the difference. I've definitely hit under 15 miles of range, once coming into a Supercharger station at 0 miles. Something unexpected can always come up, and I've taken trips where one way was over 200 miles going to places with few chargers.

#3 should be pretty easy to understand. The difference between the two in a situation where there is a hard limit, say, 220 miles that makes the car useful or not useful to owner, the bigger battery pack will have potentially a year or more of additional service life.

#2 - this one we don't really know yet. Based on using the same c-rate, it would be obvious that the bigger pack can tolerate higher Supercharging rate, shaving a few minutes off each charge along the Supercharger network on each charge. At the moment, 85 kWh packs are usually limited to 120 kW even when hooked up to 135 kW Superchargers. Plus, the taper kicks in pretty quick and 120 kW is really a short lived peak rate. With the 70 kWh packs, we've seen them charge at 370 amps, which means the wiring in 135 kW Superchargers is already built to be far thicker than what was surmised previously - the 85 kWh packs charged at 330 or so amps. The pack voltage is lower in the 70 kWh, but can Supercharge at almost the same rate as 85's. Very impressive. We simply don't know the Supercharging curve on the 90's.

If I were you, I'd at least wait until we figure out what the Supercharging curve looks like on the 90's.

 

This is boring me
Anyone got anything interesting to say?

 

I am looking forward to the 100D?

 

Well since I'm sure that @Nibble is totally still reading this and definitely hasn't been scared off by everyone's "answers" to his question, here's my referral link: Model S Design Studio | Tesla Motors

 

To answer the original question, I think it very much depends how many miles you do and how regularly you will make trips of 220 - 240 miles where you can charge at destination but not easily on route.

The extra range will be very useful for me as it increases the comfort zone for a regular journey I make to see relatives without needing to detour to Northampton or Birmingham to stop at a Supercharger. It's do-able in an 85 but 90 tips balance to making it stress free and I can charge when I get there as they have a blue commando point I can use.

 

I think the bigger issue is if it also matters if you want the "best". Will you get a nagging feeling you haven't got the top of the line?

Only you can answer that question.

TBH it's a mugs game keeping up, so it's somewhat dependent on how long you keep the car. As others have said it's highly likely some new killer feature/ spec will crop up within a year. (Probably a facelift after the X launch is my guess)

My view is get an 85D if you just want a car. Given the P85 was the holy saviour only one year ago and no one complained that car was slow, with the 85D being virtually equal in performance benchmarks (and with more range), it's a big premium to pay for a red P on the boot lid.

However if you are prepared to pay for the P85D you have already sort have put yourself in the bracket that will get buyers remorse in 6 months time when it will be _much_ more expensive to upgrade, than doing it now.

 

I think with Tesla there will always be something better to come till the technology matures, which wouldn't be a few years yet.

I see buying a Tesla a abit like buying a laptop, I've always gone for the best laptop I can afford, despite knowing in 6 - 12 months I'll be able to get the something cheaper. But I justify it because I keep my laptops for a long time, rather than upgrade every 2 - 3 years. My last laptop, an 2008 MacBook Pro lasted me till last year (actually still in use by parent in laws), so 6 years of daily use. I replaced it with a SSD retina MacBook Pro last year, love it, and I have no intention of replacing that till the well into the next decade.

The biggest regret I had with my last car was I didn't buy the version I wanted (BMW M3), instead settled for the next version down (due to my wife trying to make me be sensible ), but I wasn't happy and than wasted a whole load of £££ turning it into a M3 anyways .

A Tesla is clearly much more expensive, but when I order one I wouldn't be looking to part with it for at least 5 years+ and may be even longer, in which case surely I would want the best I can afford. The price difference between the 85D and 90D is less than 5% of the total price....I'm sure if you can afford a 85D that extra 5% is not going to be deal breaker

....Just worked out the version of the 85D I want specced out comes out at £73K, adding the 'range mode' puts up the price by 3%....which seems like nothing, but it's the equivalent to 50% of my financial commitment on the Leaf over 2 years. Either Nissan is losing a heap of £££ every Leaf or Tesla is making buckets loads of ££££ on each Model S!!

 

Either Nissan is losing a heap of £££ every Leaf or Tesla is making buckets loads of ££££ on each Model S!!

Tesla definitely make more as you keep ticking options which is easy to do (and almost virally self fulfilling )

However there was certainly a marked decrease in gross margin per car,announced in the last financials. I wonder how much is down to the lower value add in some of the once "mandatory" packages (i.e. tech) than last year.

Certainly if I were speccing today it would be nearly £10k cheaper, (basic 70 with leather as my commuter car would be perfectly adequate)

 

Interesting thread. I still maintain that for me the 5kW/hr extra on the battery is good value. If you want to add that to your Leaf you're going to have to wait and renegotiate on the future model.

 

Interesting thread. I still maintain that for me the 5kW/hr extra on the battery is good value. If you want to add that to your Leaf you're going to have to wait and renegotiate on the future model.

or indra.co.uk can fit an extra 12kWh for £6K ...

 

Mainly due to the strong $ impacting overseas margins as per the investor call

Unfortunately I just don't believe it. Look at the % of overseas sales and it doesn't add up. US sales are still far the biggest market, then Norway. NOK vs. USD hasn't moved enough since last quarter to account for the swing. Q3 Last year I can believe, but not the last quarter.

The range has got cheaper overall (bar top end models) in all currencies. I suspect it's far more likely they have been selling more lower end models in the product mix. (It has always been in their favour they sell more top end than bottom end cars to early adopters, that is bound to normalise as early adopters make way to regular car buyers, where 3 year ownership is much more common.)

On the plus side a 70 is now dangerously close to be price comparable with an equal "quality" ICE, and hence toward the goal of mass electification. On the downside it is bound to hurt Tesla's margins.

The absolute only reason I regret buying a 60, isn't range or performance, but the absolute pasting on the residuals.

 

On the subject of residuals, the Tesla web site shows the entry level 70 having a purchase price of £45,800 with a headline finance cost of £503/mo over four years (the actual figure is almost £100 more each month, so that confusingly disingenuous streak they have in their marketing permeates right down to the order form). There's also a £15,354 downpayment in much, much smaller text to consider, but nothing anywhere to show business or personal contract hire costs. Just folding or HP.

Two questions arise:

From what I can read, the 50% residual value guarantee only applies to Tesla arranged HP which suggests there are probably some very specific eligibility conditions (mileage limit, min. contract term and so on?). I don't know what these are, but the guarantee does seem to apply to every model, or in other words, the 70's value is pegged no differently to the P85D. Did the earlier 60 and 70 kWh cars predate all this? Are their residuals much less now and if so, does that not suggest the current line-up could suffer the same fate, particularly given the current rate of feature creep?

If the value projections are so strong and (presumably) now in CAP's Black Book, why are Tesla not showing PCH and BCH rates like every other manufacturer in the known universe? These rates will always show a comparatively much smaller monthly cost and smaller upfront sum - and thus sell more cars - given buyers are effectively deferring payment of a larger than average residual value.

 

RVG available on all variants. It's calculated as 50% of price of base model (ie the 70) plus 43% of everything on top (leather, dual motors, "upgrade" to 85D or P85D etc).

Requires you to HP the car through their partner with a deposit between 15 and 40%, on a min 48 month term. RVG pays out in month 37 only assuming 45k miles (deduction per mile for excess).

And since the RVG agreement is between you and tesla you have to settle with the finance company to exit your HP 11 months early before you can exercise it.

 

@People's Front of Judea I suspect the reason they don't do CH, is because they can't fund it. Merc/BM/VW et al are sat on piles of cash, and healthy positive cash flow. They also have captive finance companies that are there to help them shift volume.

Tesla are burning cash at the moment, and the big plus with a third party lease is the cash is instantly recognised in Tesla's accounts.

Now they could use a third party CH company (or you could make your own arrangements) but list price to list price you won't get nearly as much car for the monthly payments. The finance company is taking all the risk, and the RVG isn't open to them. To make matters worse they need to make their margin on top, and don't get discounts on new vehicles either. (Just look at an A7 3.0 which is similar list, it's half the price on BCH)

Having bought for cash, with a lot of press around the 50%, and seeing what the US market looked like I was pretty confident in seeing at least 35-40%. However as the constant flood of upgrades have happened, and a brand new car now is effectively 20% cheaper, I can't see this happening.

Now no doubt Tesla will try and buoy the market by buying up all the used cars, a trick Porsche have been doing for years. So it's likely that's where mine will end up, but I'm not holding out any hope it will get near it's 50% after 3 years even with < 25k miles on it.

TBH it has really put me off to the point where I don't think I want another Tesla in a couple of years time, and even if I did it wouldn't be new. Once bitten and all that.

Saying that maybe all these delays we've been having on UK D cars are the start of Tesla showing a bit more sense as they have become more sensitive to the impact of cavalier upgrade strategies. I'm sure Tesla UK didn't want a repeat of the autopilot hardware debacle again!

 

Who gives a monkeys about the range? Surely the only reason for the getting the 90 kWh battery with the ludicrous upgrade is that you get the full 0-60 in 2.8 secs instead of a measly 2.9 secs with the 85 kWh battery. Time to press that max performance button on the order form!

 

The OP asked about 90D vs 85D.

Performance variants were never on the table.

 

thanks to @mgboyes and to @Simon Mac for some illuminating facts and what I presume is an oft overlooked issue of Tesla guaranteed residuals, i.e. that in month 37 you have to stump up a settlement figure on the HP. Anyone know if they waive this penalty or if it's calculated (as I suspect it might be, the money coming from BMW Financial Services) no differently to any other agreement?

Sticking with the subject of residuals, upgraded 'special editions' of similarly fast cars tend to come with e.g. lightweight construction, a plaque showing where your car sits in its limited run, plus matching Versace luggage and gold braided underpants with diamond accents. Although sometimes naff they lend exclusivity and more often than not pin CAP values higher.

In the case of the 90 kWh battery like Ludicrous Speed it's listed as an option, rather than a separate model, so the residual calculations on your outlay are lower and on that basis I'm not sure it stacks up - let alone the fact it's a lot of money for not a lot of extra tarmac.

 

Anyone know if they waive this penalty or if it's calculated (as I suspect it might be, the money coming from BMW Financial Services) no differently to any other agreement?

Is there a penalty? My last car finance deal let me settle early without one.

 

Depends on the type of the finance you had. With HP rather than e.g. PCP the provider is legally bound to cap the settlement figure, which might partly be why Tesla only provides residual value guarantees via that route; with HP you can also return the car before the contracted end of the agreement if you've paid at least 50% of the cost. At least, that has always been my understanding.

 

The 90D was announced just after I ordered an 85D so I thought about changing my order. Certainly, the additional £2.5k spread over 3 years was not an issue. But I didn't want to wait yet another month for the 90D so I stuck with the original order. Sad, I know....

 

There's no delay from switching post-order from 85D to 90D; assuming your car hasn't been built yet then you can adjust your spec and retain your place in the build queue.

 

When I spec'd the car up on the web site, it showed late Nov delivery for the 85D vs late Dec for the 90D, and that is what I based my decision on...

 

Get in touch with your DS and ask them for a clear answer.