[Briggo]

But you two are not the norm, you're doing high miles. You're responding on a thread about someone who's done 8900 miles over 2 years.

An MX-30 with 20% battery deg is still 28kwh, which is perfectly fine for most people on their daily errands.

 

[FrankS57]

This was the point I was making in another thread. It’s OK if you have an 80kWh+ battery but if you have a Mazda MX-30, Honda e, Mini Electric etc. then you’re looking at a change from a car that’s just about usable to one that’s only any good for going to the shops a couple of times without a 45 minute charge for every hour of driving on the motorway. Those cars will effectively prove the FUD-merchants correct. And none of those are cheap cars.

Mini driver here How many miles on your Mini SE? reporting 80,000 miles with no loss of range. Ours has done 16,500 miles with no apparent range reduction .

 

[wja96]

Mini driver here How many miles on your Mini SE? reporting 80,000 miles with no loss of range. Ours has done 16,500 miles with no apparent range reduction .

I appreciate what you are saying and indicated range is probably as good an indication of how far the car will go as anything. What it is not, is an indication of battery degradation. All batteries have top and bottom buffers and once they are consumed the range drop will become apparent.

That begs the question of when do the battery manufacturers think the battery will drop to a certain point and I think you then have to look at the warranty and say, “the manufacturer is only confident that the battery will last 100-120,000 miles or 8 years. I don’t think they came up with these numbers without some evidence and given that these are very high value items they would have put a lot of weight on the decision.

And the truth is, we just don’t know. Which is why contributing to these threads with as much detail as possible is important, because we’ll only find out if people report their findings. My car is quite unusual, I think, because I do a LOT of miles and I very, very, rarely AC charge my car. It’s almost all supercharging. And it has had some effect on the battery - I’ve apparently lost 1.5% in nearly 40,000 miles. That’s about 4 miles of lost range. On a Mini, with a rough range of 130 miles, and the same 1.5% degradation, you’d have lost 2 miles.

At some point, these batteries will degrade in a way that makes itself obvious because the buffers will be consumed and the range will decline. And my 250 mile original range car will drop down to 200 miles of range at a full charge and an equivalent Mini will drop down to about 100 miles. It’s all about what the manufacturers have factored in in the buffers. There is an unconfirmed rumour that the 52kWh Zoe is the same battery as the 40kWh with the buffers taken out because Renault saw the batteries were not degrading as fast as they thought they would. And Toyota infamously reserved a massive chunk of the BZ4X battery because they were incredibly conservative on battery degradation.

So it‘s good data from the person reporting no range loss at 80,000 miles, what is more important for the future used car market is when does the range loss occur. And we just don’t know at the moment. It’s no different for anything mechanical. VAG built a whole bunch of engines that should have lasted 150,000 miles but they coked up badly in traffic and some didn’t make 50,000 miles. DSG gearboxes also failed expensively in droves. The 1.5l engine in the ICE Mini and BMW i8 might as well be made of chocolate the number of issues they have. Do you remember when they brought in catalytic converters and DPFs and everyone said they were an expensive bill waiting to happen? In both cases there was some truth in it but now everyone has these things and there is an aftermarket industry to repair or replace them. I’m sure it will be the same with batteries.

 

[wja96]

But you two are not the norm, you're doing high miles. You're responding on a thread about someone who's done 8900 miles over 2 years.

An MX-30 with 20% battery deg is still 28kwh, which is perfectly fine for most people on their daily errands.

I think we’re going to have to disagree on the MX-30. According to EV database it has a real world range in the summer of 120 miles and 85 miles in the winter. That’s on 100% battery. If we’re saying that at 10 years of age it will have 80% of its battery capacity left then that car will do 65-85 miles winter to summer. And it only charges at 38kW maximum so if you did need to go any distance at all in it, you could drive for 1 hour on the motorway then charge for 50 minutes to get it back to 80% indicated (20kWh) then drive 45 minutes to charge for 50 minutes. Do you REALLY think anyone is going to buy that, even just to go to the shops, knowing you could never realistically go away in your nice car? Sorry - but people will just buy a 1.2 petrol and use it as they need to.

Then, based on the fact that many, many, ex-lease cars are clocked then how would you know that the lovely 2-year old MX-30 you’re buying for a bargain price is low mileage? And has low battery degradation? You don’t. It is the same with ICE of course, but you also have to factor in the neophobia - everything new is attractive to some people but many people fear change. And avoid new things until they’re thoroughly proven. That will come in time.

As for the mileage we’ve covered, the OP has done 4500 miles per year and got 0.5% and I’ve done 38000 miles in less time and got 1.5% degradation. Are you more or less reassured by the fact that both scenarios give low battery degradation? I’m much happier with this experience. My last EV, a Hyundai Kona, did almost 100,000 miles in just under 3 years and as far as I could tell, it had more range at the end than it did at the beginning of the lease. Again, hopefully confidence inspiring. But these are new cars, not 7-10 years old. And we just won’t know about that longevity until we get to 2029 at least.

The best way to overcome any FUD is an informed discussion.

 

[Aragorn]

I think the length of the manufacturer warranty shows they're pretty confident in their product. The manufacturer is happy to warranty the battery to 8-10 years and ~100k. For that, they have to be pretty sure that it'll last just fine, and not just eeke thru but comfortably pass. Or they're going to be hit with a storm of warranty claims, and potentially a nice chunk of bad press at some point down the line. Even the LEAF, with some of the worse degredation known very rarely reaches a warranty triggering point (at least in the UK, the lack of thermal management causes issues in hotter climes).

I think we can thus deduce a 40-60+kwh battery will easily make the warranty point without a sweat. Its being cycled half as much as a 24kwh LEAF battery for the same mileage, and all modern packs have proper thermal regulation. Plus manufacturers have had years of tweaking the battery chemistry to better balance all the requirements.

The idea that the buffer is "consumed" is flawed. The buffer usually takes the form of voltage limits. The batteries arent charged to full voltage, and they arent drained to minimum voltage. The car doesnt increase that voltage range over time, so the buffers remain. They will shrink in percentage terms with the rest of the battery.

That also means you can fairly easily "prove" that a 40kwh and 52kwh Zoe have different cells, as you can see the voltage they are charged to.

Do you REALLY think anyone is going to buy that, even just to go to the shops

We bought a 10 year old LEAF, with 82% battery health and about 18kwh usable earlier this year. Its perfect as a local runabout. Comfortably gets the wife to work, kids to nursery and any other local journeys that we do. Might not be great fun trying to drive it 100miles, but its not needed for that. Saves us a bit of money and it was cheaper than an equivalent ICE car. It also has all the nice stuff like heated seats/steering wheel and LED lights that you rarely find on run of the mill C segment ICE cars.

If your Tesla, at 10 years old, only had 70% of its original capacity, it would still be a perfectly useable car, and would probably drive 2-3x as far as this old LEAF can.

 

[Briggo]

And it only charges at 38kW maximum so if you did need to go any distance at all in it

That wasn't my point at all.

As said, most people for the daily errands aren't doing big miles, they're pottering around town.

And yes, plenty of people buy Leafs/Zoes (smaller battery versions) right now knowing the battery is not going to get them from London to Edinburgh. They use it as their second car for local journeys for example.

Not everyone is the same as yourself.

 

[wja96]

That wasn't my point at all.

As said, most people for the daily errands aren't doing big miles, they're pottering around town.

And yes, plenty of people buy Leafs/Zoes (smaller battery versions) right now knowing the battery is not going to get them from London to Edinburgh. They use it as their second car for local journeys for example.

Not everyone is the same as yourself.

No, but most car buyers want at least the capability to go on holiday in their car. A 52kWh Zoe at 10 years old will still go 200 miles in the summer. That will get you where you want to go, and it won’t break the bank. The inefficient, tiny battery cars are not attractive to practical people who just want cheap transport and don’t give a monkey’s about the environment. They’re still going to buy ICE.

 

[vaugi]

No, but most car buyers want at least the capability to go on holiday in their car. A 52kWh Zoe at 10 years old will still go 200 miles in the summer. That will get you where you want to go, and it won’t break the bank. The inefficient, tiny battery cars are not attractive to practical people who just want cheap transport and don’t give a monkey’s about the environment. They’re still going to buy ICE.

I use a 50-80 mile range VW transporter van daily, and have done occasional trips upto 250 mile round trips. I wouldn't discount what people do, not every one is a "road warrior"...personally couldn't think of anything worse than spending 30-40,000 miles on the road each year.

 

[HughF]

440 miles today, yawn… two five minute stops for Greggs 🤣 traffic today was terrible.

370 on Tuesday…. One 5 minute Greggs stop 🤣

 

[HughF]

No, but most car buyers want at least the capability to go on holiday in their car. A 52kWh Zoe at 10 years old will still go 200 miles in the summer. That will get you where you want to go, and it won’t break the bank. The inefficient, tiny battery cars are not attractive to practical people who just want cheap transport and don’t give a monkey’s about the environment. They’re still going to buy ICE.

Couldn’t agree more…. If you’re spending second hand car money on a second hand car it better tick as many of the ‘what do I need a car for boxes’. The amount of 15yr old Jazz/note/other I’ve seen today with a family, all their kids and a roofbox on, going on holiday, is quite large….

Sod doing the length of the a30 at 70mph, fully loaded, in a 24kWh leaf

 

[Briggo]

I wouldn't discount what people do, not every one is a "road warrior"

It appears that's lost on him.

 

[FrankS57]

Then, based on the fact that many, many, ex-lease cars are clocked then how would you know that the lovely 2-year old MX-30 you’re buying for a bargain price is low mileage? And has low battery degradation?

Really! This is a scandal and I would also assume this applies to ICE cars as well, so you buy a car thinking it's nowhere near needing a cambelt change and you end up with an expensive engine repair bill, and they don't have an 8 year warranty either.

Best avoiding any ex-lease cars........unless you can do an independent health check, battery or cam belt.

 

[HughF]

Really! This is a scandal and I would also assume this applies to ICE cars as well, so you buy a car thinking it's nowhere near needing a cambelt change and you end up with an expensive engine repair bill, and they don't have an 8 year warranty either.

Best avoiding any ex-lease cars........unless you can do an independent health check, battery or cam belt.

Digital mileage correction, it’s as old as the hills. I wouldn’t know anything about that 🤣

 

[HughF]

It appears that's lost on him.

If you’re at the bottom of the barrel and buying a £3k family car, would you buy the one that will be a total pain in the backside for family holidays to the seaside (roof box, two adults, two kids, possibly a camping trailer) as it will only do 70 miles at motorway speeds before needing a 30 minute stop, or would you buy the 1.4 chain cam Nissan note?

You’d buy the most capable car for your budget….

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Digital mileage correction, it’s as old as the hills. I wouldn’t know anything about that 🤣

I suspect that services like Car Vertical may well be putting an end to it now. They log all vehicle mileages and present the data as a plot, so any odd-looking dips will immediately flag the mileage as having been tampered with. With almost all cars now having connectivity I suspect it's pretty difficult to pull this stunt now. The manufacturer's servers probably also hold data on the historic mileage that the car has reported whenever it's been driven.

 

[AB51]

440 miles today, yawn… two five minute stops for Greggs 🤣 traffic today was terrible.

370 on Tuesday…. One 5 minute Greggs stop 🤣

The advice is to stop every 2 hours at least & take a rest or walk for safety reasons & counteract your yawn

 

[Briggo]

If you’re at the bottom of the barrel and buying a £3k family car, would you buy the one that will be a total pain in the backside for family holidays to the seaside (roof box, two adults, two kids, possibly a camping trailer) as it will only do 70 miles at motorway speeds before needing a 30 minute stop, or would you buy the 1.4 chain cam Nissan note?

You’d buy the most capable car for your budget….

The conversation started off with "low capacity cars are useless because once you factor in degradation they'll go nowhere and people won't want them"

Your point was counteracted with not everyone needs a large capacity car, the average mileage daily is around 18 miles a day. For some people, who don't go on family holidays to Scarborough and need to travel 300 miles to get there, a small battery car fits their needs perfectly day in day out. Those families might just do their holidays abroad. There are folk in my family who haven't left the county of Norfolk in their entire lives. There are a whole host of people in totally different situations to yourselves.

Or they'll be used as their second car to a long distance EV, as we do.

You don't seem to be able to comprehend that.

For those who are unable to afford anything more than 3k and needs to go on their 300 mile holidays, then absolutely, you wouldn't buy an EV. People are in different situations and that's fine.

 

[HughF]

The conversation started off with "low capacity cars are useless because once you factor in degradation they'll go nowhere and people won't want them"

Your point was counteracted with not everyone needs a large capacity car, the average mileage daily is around 18 miles a day. For some people, who don't go on family holidays to Scarborough and need to travel 300 miles to get there, a small battery car fits their needs perfectly day in day out. Those families might just do their holidays abroad. There are folk in my family who haven't left the county of Norfolk in their entire lives. There are a whole host of people in totally different situations to yourselves.

Or they'll be used as their second car to a long distance EV, as we do.

You don't seem to be able to comprehend that.

For those who are unable to afford anything more than 3k and needs to go on their 300 mile holidays, then absolutely, you wouldn't buy an EV. People are in different situations and that's fine.

I totally get that, there are people who don’t do more than 10 miles a day and don’t drive on family holidays.

I counter argue that having spent most of yesterday on the a30 driving to hayle and back from east Dorset, I passed a ton of families trying to do family stuff with a small car. Small EVs with small batteries and slow charging just don’t compete with a B segment ICE for practically. Heck I could tow a 750kg caravan with my 10yr old Sandero if I wanted to… try doing that with a Zoe.

People who can only afford one small car will want that one small car to do everything…

Manufacturers need to do better. The e208/corsa E should be type approved for towing, but isn’t. The roof bars on the mg5 should have been approved for a roof box. It’s pathetic really.