Thanks for your investigation: good luck on getting an answer to that old chestnut. Perhaps you will also get an indication about whether this information is actually logged anywhere!

 

So, I put my detective hat on, and decided to find the owners manual for the e-Golf. I found the registration number for the Autocar test vehicle (KX17OXB) and put it in Manuals

I looked though the manual, and... it still doesn't say. I was hoping it would say what the maximum charging current was in e-Manager, but no.

You are welcome to follow my method above to read the Owners Manual, but I couldn’t find anything mentioned.

It would be relatively simple to include some software in the car which stopped the multiple charging, or at least give a warning.

 

This implies that Rapid Charging is bad for batteries

 

Yes, rapid charging is bad for any battery. It gets hot for a start.

 

Tesla Bjorn did suffer the battery pack getting hot when he did a long road trip in Norway in the new e.Golf.
He did find after multi succession charging and driving like he stole the car, the car did reduce the speed of charge to 28 Kw in order to protect the battery !.
The cooling of the battery pack on the Golf is only passive and not water cooled like in his model X and therefore the Golf is better suited to being charged at a slower rate.
You can see the affect of the heat if you skip to 41.00 mins of the video below.

 

The video appears to show what actually happens in the real world:

If you rapidly charge multiple times, resulting in the battery getting hot, the car limits the charge rate accordingly. That seems quite sensible to me.

As above, that senario is quite rare for most users anyway (certainly for me).

 

As the warranty wording says it might not apply due to not charging on the CCS Rapid charging 3 times in a row, then clearly they didn't proof read it!

If in a few years time your battery failed and VW said it was due to you doing too many consecutive rapid charges, there'd be an interesting legal argument, when their warranty says the opposite.

 

Yeah, I saw in that vid that the charge speed seemed to be lowered, which is what makes this even weirder - if the car is managing it, why put this in the manual unless it's just to try and dodge warranties?

VW replied on twitter saying I can't have the manual and the dealer can tell me about the warranty. The dealer says he has no idea because they have no owners manual either, because they don't have a car yet.

I also can't find anything in the manual linked above with the reg. I'm going to send this back to VW and the dealer again - they can't refuse to give details or the warranty prior to purchasing, this is crazy

 

Would a car you can’t apparently rapid charge more than 3 times in a row be fit for purpose anyway?

 

Ok, in that manual I found this:

High-voltage battery guarantee
The new car warranty from Volkswagen Group also covers the vehicle's high-voltage battery. For the terms and conditions relating to this guarantee, see the ⇒BookletService schedule,.

In the service schedule I found the below. No mention of the 3-charge thing though, and can't find that in the manual. It does answer the capacity though!

 

I've just read through it as well and I can't see any mention of the limit of three charges anywhere in the manual or the service book, which is where everything is referenced back to. It seems like it is another of VW's inconsistencies in going electric. It would be nice to know what we are buying.

 

I would say a car that can't be driven from one end of the UK to the other using rapid chargers is not of a fit quality to be sold.......

 

It could be worth a call to the EV experience at Milton Keynes. I called them about a test drive in the middle of September and the guy I spoke to expected to have the new e-Golf available for a test drive by the end of September/beginning of October. assuming the car has the manual and service book they could check for any restrictions on battery charging.

For me I can't see it being a problem anyway. I haven't driven over 300 miles in a day for years, and in a car that takes an hour+ to fully charge we are looking at 5-6 hours+ driving and 2 hours of charging, 8 hours plus. I'd just plan for an overnight stop at that point. The thought of another hours charge and then driving 2 more hours would be more than my wife would want to do anyway. If I was on my own I would need a proper sleep or I would risk falling asleep at the wheel.

 

It could be worth a call to the EV experience at Milton Keynes. I called them about a test drive in the middle of September and the guy I spoke to expected to have the new e-Golf available for a test drive by the end of September/beginning of October. assuming the car has the manual and service book they could check for any restrictions on battery charging.

We've managed to get the manuals online, but nobody can find this information in it. I'm poking VW, but so far not getting useful replies

For me I can't see it being a problem anyway. I haven't driven over 300 miles in a day for years, and in a car that takes an hour+ to fully charge we are looking at 5-6 hours+ driving and 2 hours of charging, 8 hours plus. I'd just plan for an overnight stop at that point. The thought of another hours charge and then driving 2 more hours would be more than my wife would want to do anyway. If I was on my own I would need a proper sleep or I would risk falling asleep at the wheel.

The problem is that this wording doesn't just cover 300mi+ trips. If you go away somewhere 150 miles away that doesn't have destination charging and end up rapid charging three times split cross two weekends without a slow charge in between, that's still three-in-a-row. That's what bugs me about this - it's easy to hit accidental, and the way it's worded doesn't really make sense in this respect.

The video appears to show what actually happens in the real world:

If you rapidly charge multiple times, resulting in the battery getting hot, the car limits the charge rate accordingly. That seems quite sensible to me.

It's definitely sensible. The text in the price list is not. If the car is managing it, why do we need this text? This text means *we can't rely on the car managing it* because if we charge 3 times in a row on CCS, VW now have a reason to never honour the warranty in the case of any battery fault (how can we possibly argue that it was unrelated to that triple-CCS charge 12 months ago?).

The fact that we can't find it in the manual makes me think maybe they thought better of it and it's not a problem, but I want to see them update the price list and confirm in writing that this isn't a restriction before my car arrives. I'm not taking an EV I can't rapid charge three times in a row, even across different days without knowing my warranty is still intact. It's not an unreasonable demand given the money involved (and the cost of replacing a 35kWh battery pack!).

 

In winter with driving rain, hills and head winds how much is range reduced? 3 rapids in a row is easily possible.

I often need 2 rapids instead of one due to spacing. It's not even difficult to need 3, especially in cold weather. Or if you've not had time to charge up at home fully. If you go straight out then that's another charge on top.

 

If it's only on the price list I can't see how it could be used as a get out clause. The price list says to charge according to the manual and the manual doesn't mention anything about not fast charging three times in a row. Unless there is something else hidden in the manual I don't see how VW could use a price list note that refers you to the manual to wriggle out a warranty claim.

 

I agree that the manual and service book that ships with the car must be the definitive answer. After all if you were to buy s/h you would never even see the price list.

 

Yeah, I agree - but what if the manual that turns up with the car does mention it, even though the one online doesn't? Can we argue that a manual we found using the reg of someone elses car counts?

Anyway, I've had a better response from VW saying they're speaking to their product team and will get back to me. I'll post back when I hear.

 

Exactly - and we know from videos online that the Golf does the same, so this restriction makes no sense.

I had a call from someone from the VW executive office today about my ranting email/delivery times/etc. and I took the opportunity to talk about this. I don't think he was all that familiar with EVs, so I explained how insane this restriction is, and how completely unreasonable it is to hide it in a manual you can't have until you get the car (and that we don't think it's in there). He's going to do some digging and get back to me (the twitter account also said they're doing the same). I'll post back if I get a good answer.

 

Good news (ish)!

I had a call back from the director's office today. Although they didn't have a date for my car, they unexpectedly had an answer to this. They said the information in the price list is a mistake and there is no limit on using rapid chargers. They couldn't give me an idea of when the website would be updated so I've asked for them to send me an email confirming this so I at least have something from them about this in meantime. The guy said he needs to run that by his manager, but I don't expect them to say no when there are orders hanging on it.

I'll post back when I get the email and/or notice the price list is updated but figured it was worth a note in the meantime

 

Good news (ish)!
I had a call back from the director's office today. Although they didn't have a date for my car, they unexpectedly had an answer to this. They said the information in the price list is a mistake and there is no limit on using rapid chargers.

Thanks Dan. That confirms @Tim Ostler 's previous comments.

 

Your safe in the uk. The chances of finding 3 rapid ccs chargers in a row that are working is very slim. You've more chance of winning the lottery.

 

We've used the AC Ecotricity rapids with ZOE loads of times and hardly ever had any issues. Is there something bad about the CCS, or have things with Ecotricity just gone downhill since we last relied on them?

 

Just the slow pace of Ecotricity converting their CHAdeMO/AC rapids to CHAdeMO/CCS/AC triple heads. Some key locations (eg Blyth services on the A1) are still without CCS.

 

I've still not had this in writing; but I spoke to director's office again today and they said if they don't sent it today, it'll be a week Tuesday when the guy returns from leave.

 

You are still being tested!

How can a multi billion dollar international automotive car company not already have in print the details of a flagship model of their future?

Instead they are telling you it's entirely reliant on some bloke who may or may not get to answer before he goes on holiday.

Roll over and have your tummy tickled, people!!

 

lol =)

Probably updating the price list on the website means they need to find the source file, find the guy that knows how to use the software to edit it, find out how to use FTP and what server it's on...

And sending me an email requires permission from "the manager" and then likely needs proof-reading by twenty different legal teams to make sure I can't sue them over some vague wording when they actually choose to void my warranty for an "unrelated" reason in two years time ;-)

Still, my car has (**apparently**) been flagged for priority delivery and is being built on Nov and delivered in Dec. If this turns out to be true, I can't complain! Of course, I'm not cancelling my Leaf pre-order just yet ;-)

 

lol =)

Probably updating the price list on the website means they need to find the source file, find the guy that knows how to use the software to edit it, find out how to use FTP and what server it's on...

It's just a pdf. Adobe professional would fix it. Once someone has agreed to write it to a member of the public, why not just put it in print if it is 'less wrong' than what they have already put?

 

I don't believe in conspiracies (much.)
I do believe in the incompetence of mega-bureaucracies.

 

Exactly, but certain people here would rather believe that every VW employee is recruited from the axis of evil.

 

Not that simple. It will have to be sent to the office of the Vice-President (Price Lists) before moving on to the Head of European Legal Affairs then the Director of Typography & Inks, before being passed to the web sub-contractors in India.

 

Ah! So how come you know so much about the company I work for, then?

 

It's what comes from working in the NHS (which, by the way, I love dearly but find frustrating in equal measure.)

 

The price list on the website has now been updated (dated 1st November) and does NOT contain this paragraph in the battery warranty section (page 46) anymore

 

Well done Dan!