Never had a company car, so can't really feel your pain... But yes that seems a regressive step if they really want very low emissions vehicle take up to increase?

 

50% of all new car sales are to fleets; without a compelling case to choose an EV why bother, could be the message from this Company Car Tax strategy

 

You might as well go for an Ampera or a Plug-in Prius - they are in the same band!

 

How long did you think HMRC was going to continue not collecting TAX from EVs?

Now combine this with the news from the other thread about per kWh billing, and we are quite happily plodding down the route towards a per kWh tax. And eventually, once there is a significant uptake, VED will be updated to count for the number of seats or wheels or something regardless of engine or fuel type.

 

I've had my calculator out; here are the numbers in there full horror; order a Nissan LEAF Tekna today on a 4 year lease and you'll jump from £0 this year to £1,609.92 in company car tax. Just WOW.

 

I think that all this has to happen at some point doesn't it? The question for me is this: Is it too early?

I think it probably is and will remain so for some years to come. The full car tax doesn't come in until 2018-19 so hopefully by that time the incentives won't be quite so necessary.

 

No increase in fuel duty will not help promote an increase in EV ownership either.

 

ermmm.....London Air Quality....about to be fined by Europe for breach of safe levels....sorry sorry... i"m joined up thinking again

 

Of course taxes and charging will have to apply long term -- but right now in theory I thought the government was trying to encourage the use of alternative fuels, more efficient transportation etc - witness the investment through olev for example. Yet as grant says a large % of car sales are through fleets - and leases apply for 3-4 years typically, so by introducing these higher rates now there is a real likelihood they are strangling any potential demand for EVs by making them no more cost effective than the alternatives.

As grant says this completely throws a spanner in my calculations post 2015 too.

Anyone got 100k free so I can go and buy a tesla outright. Yes I'm hooked on EVs but this is going to be very very tricky.

Fundamentally I think the government are screwing up the policies here -- I don't think things are properly linked together and there isn't enough focus on tackling the real issues of climate change.

 

But if you're going for a company car, isn't the EV still the lowest cost option? All other cars are going up too.. Or are you saying you'd consider taking cash instead of a lease and buying ? Sorry I'm probably being dim tonight, big glass of red with dinner!

 

But if you're going for a company car, isn't the EV still the lowest cost option? All other cars are going up too.. Or are you saying you'd consider taking cash instead of a lease and buying ? Sorry I'm probably being dim tonight, big glass of red with dinner!

There's only a 2% difference by 2019/20 between EVs and the next ICE band, so no difference buying a £20k VW Golf vs £30k LEAF or BMW i3, in fact the Golf lease is cheaper and company car tax the same. The £5k give grant does not apply to company car tax. So the only saving is the fuel cost for the range sacrifice

 

I went from leasing a land rover discovery to an ampera as my company car and it was like getting an extra salary! Which was the intention as I hadn't had a salary increase since 2008 and my wife was pregnant with number 4. If you get a chance to have a company car the lowest tax bik bands make it way cheaper than earning the cash. Our scheme is a salary sacrifice scheme through tuskerdirect.co.uk. You can ask to see their rates and then ask your employer if you can take part. The financial examples show neatly how the lowest tax bands work in your favour.

 

If these rate remain I would probably buy a £15k nearly new Nissan LEAF Tekna as the reduction in the BIK tax cash amount would be compensated for by not having to pay £1,600 company car tax.

 

Sorry, the figures are for the taxable rate for private fuel of a company car, for a car the tax is based on a figure set by HMRC for this year it is £21,100 you multiply this by your co2 value for the Ampera 5% then by your tax rate which for me is 40% = £422.
The fuel tax for a van is a fixed rate, for this year £564 and is not affected by co2 hence at 40% tax I would pay £235.
I knew it wasn't a good idea to be venting at 11:30 pm after a few drinks
Gary

 

Grant's table is very helpful, I went from a 7 seat Ford into a Nissan Leaf Acenta. Most of my work colleagues thought i was mad but like Julian mentions the money saved was like a pay rise. I didn't expect it to go on forever but i would have hoped the increases would be a little less harsh. For me, my initial decision to move to electric wasn't all based on finances as i really enjoy driving them and I don't need to do many long journeys. I'm trying to be sensible and for the next few years topping up my pension payments.

 

I believe that there is a case for EV drivers to come forward, not as sandal wearing ex-hippies, but as out and out frugalists who are looking for every money saving channel they can, I've long wanted to set up a web site called 'The Leccy Spongers' taking the name from Harry and Pauls take-off of the popular TV series 'Waking the Dead' except that their police car was a G-wizz and all their equipment kept running out of charge and they had to find electrical outlets wherever they went and had to 'sponge leccy'. Well I think these principles are very lofty ones(!), and you can take charge master head-on by getting as much back-door free leccy as possible. Its a sort of eco-civil-disobiedience of a very mild sort, and one that would be a lot of fun at the same time.

A Leccy Spongers web site could provide all the real world tips for getting around in your EV, like charging your car from a stationary genset running on red diesel. an LPG conversion for the ampera to cut its petrol bill in half (cheaper than you may think) and any other ideas that are off the wall and cheap!

 

I used to have a fuel allowance too, and it muddies the decision making, glass of wine or not! My employer recently got rid of all fuel cards for all grades of management and we've been given a fixed allowance thats now subject to paye. So I would suggest for most with a co car its just a bik equation? The argument I'm now having is with charging the ampera at work, as they've elected for a Rolec coin operated charger which will be installed soon. The idea behind the coin-op charger is that me paying for leccie will not attract bik tax on it. So now they have to employ a security gentleman to empty the machine of my meagre coins to avoid a tax problem. I would naturally prefer it to be free and handle the tax man myself. I would be interested if others have had similar difficulties with their at-work charging?

 

Most of my charging is done at home, working for a main dealer I can use their charge points for business mileage but not for personal use - I can't argue as currently its a free car and they don't pay anyone elses fuel. I think the coin charger sounds like a good idea. We have a chargemaster post outside my office, which in theory i could use as a member although not sure what happens from April as it looks like it will be cheaper for me to drive home and charge...

 

Here's a different way of looking at it;

A VW Golf Bluemotion is £1,200 a year cheaper to lease than a Nissan LEAF and £6 a year cheaper on Company Car Tax. Compare that to the i3 REX Suite and the Golf lease is £1,980 cheaper and CCT is £284.64 cheaper.

The message from the Treasury is that you will be SIGNIFICANTLY worse off driving an electric car by 2018. That's just nuts

 

Here's a different way of looking at it;
View attachment 530
A VW Golf Bluemotion is £1,200 a year cheaper to lease than a Nissan LEAF and £6 a year cheaper on Company Car Tax. Compare that to the i3 REX Suite and the Golf lease is £1,980 cheaper and CCT is £284.64 cheaper.

The message from the Treasury is that you will be SIGNIFICANTLY worse off driving an electric car by 2018. That's just nuts

Yes, seems to be. If you were taking out a four year lease now though, you'll still be quids in going for the EV over the four years by paying far less tax and lower fuel costs...and driving a more luxurious car that's great fun. But come 2018, using the current car prices, the equation is vey different, nowhere near as much incentive to go EV. However, a lot could change in the next four years with the EV vs ICE price difference, and the relative costs of electricity and fuel couldn't it? As we approach 2018 it may well look different..hope so anyway!

 

Are you saying it's a good idea for an Electric Car to be TAXED more than a Diesel VW Golf ? What message does that send? Who would choose an electric car as a company car; what's the point? I could get a GOLF and be over £1200 a year better off; more than enough to fuel the car and pollute the world. It's the opposite of responsible leadership. And with no new fleet electric cars this hits the 2nd hand market in 3 years. The Oil Industry must have toasted the budget yesterday. Job done.

With 50% of new car sales direct to fleet this could have a very significant impact on EV adoption. Major.

 

...5% is fair for EV company car tax whilst we TRY and emerge of the post ICE-age. We need incentives and tax breaks, kind of what Gas, Oil, Coal, Fracking get.

 

Reading that back not worded well at all. Tired.com. Yes clearly EVs price point higher than Diesel cars and private buyers get the £5k gov grant. This gets absorbed by the lease cost but is not taken into consideration for CCT purposes. Full list price prevails; hence the huge leap in the CCT value for EVs when they put the % up to near the same as ICE cars.

My core issue remains that this significant abandonment of support for EV adoption will hit fleet sales. However it is highly consistent with the cancelling of a whole heap of sustainable measures in yesterday's budget. This policy will hit EV fleet sales as its cheaper to choose the ICE car than EV which is completely wrong for air quality, sustainability, strategically etc etc

 

Put it another way, if you don't like the new company car rules, buy or lease an EV privately.

Which, as you will se on an early comment, I now plan to do. Ex demo i3 REX or LEAF Tekna next year for me

 

Yes we are in the same area that ALL EV purchases should be incentivised, be that £5k payment as it is today or some other blend of tax, charging or other support. It just feels an uphill battle right now with one blow after the next eroding the positive case for EVs to a cynical population. What a depressing statement to end International Happiness Day!

Let me adjust that to say that, after 20,000 EV miles, I could not go back to an ICE car. It's just better on every level. See much better )

 

The root problem here, and also to an extent with charger fees, is should EV adoption be left to the free market, or incentivised?

EVs are currently significantly more expensive than ICE cars, have limited range and take too long to charge. Many current EV drivers think they are nicer to drive, but this is subjective and you can get some pretty impressive ICE cars for EV money. Wih no purchase incentives, taxed at the same rate as other cars and with "market price" charging, how attractive would they be? Now consider that with no desire to incentivise EVs the government would would probably ban 13A charging so that it could tax EV charging at the same level as petrol (even at home). Now how attractive do EVs look?

So, are the benefits to the country and the rest of the world such that EV uptake should be subsidised, or is it better to apply pure market forces and destroy any hope of an EV future? My opinion is that EVs should be incentivised at a level that is sufficient for "average drivers" to want to switch. Unfortunately I believe that things are starting to swing the other way and there is a very real chance that we won't see any significant takeup until things change.

 

I see a lot less doom and gloom.

The problem discussed in this thread is that we have had an un-level set of incentives for EVs up to now. There was no good reason that company car drivers should have had more incentives than private buyers and that clearly needed to be fixed. It was a tax system hack incentive. (I'd rather see the whole company car thing abolished entirely - seems so old fashioned nowadays anyway. Any time someone suggests salary sacrifice as a way to save money you know the system is broken.)

I don't buy the 'it's all about price' thing any more. That's rubbish. Looking down the street there are a whole mixture of expensive and cheap cars. EVs need to stand on their own, and to a large part they already do once people understand the advantages. What we need to do is:

- Stop bleating about public charging being a necessary thing for any EV adoption. As we've discovered recently, many people were just using it because it was free, not because they had no alternative. Educate the car buyer that public charging is not a blocker. Stop telling them that it is, because hey, it's free.
- Start explaining the advantages of EVs other than price. My wife will never go back to an ICE car, not because of any particularly green or cost reason, but for the simple fact she loves never having to go to a petrol station. Nobody sends the diesel fairies round in the night to top up other cars.
- Stop looking down on range-extenders because they are not 'pure'. They are a better solution than rapid charging for long journeys and make a lot more sense than paying for double the battery pack. This isn't a 100% goal we are after.

Ok, that was a rant. But all this talk of free charging being a necessity and outrage over broken tax laws pushed me over the edge

 

- Stop looking down on range-extenders because they are not 'pure'. They are a better solution than rapid charging for long journeys and make a lot more sense than paying for double the battery pack. This isn't a 100% goal we are after.

I disagree. I don't look down on range extenders, but I am after a 100% goal and think it's possible... Range extenders and hybrids are a bridge and a gateway drug, and excellent at what they do, but 100% electric would be "better" when it arrives.

We've got to dream, technology has to win.

 

I have chipped in to this debate as I am not a company car owner so don't under stand the arguments but I just wanted to throw in my support of the last post by @Matt Beard .

I agree with that post 100%. The issue is not just a car tax one so perhaps this is introducing some topic creep but as a society we must make that decision... is it worth it to us as a society to have incentives and to ensure that the EV transition actually happens. The current state of that transition isn't yet at the point where it is self-sustaining so if we chop the incentives now I fear it will just fizzle.

Unfortunately government is sending out very mixed messages right now and I don't think that the EV transition is seen by many as unimportant.

I believe that government should be subsidising the cars and charging but not in the way it is currently being done. That only supports the companies able to draw down the grants.

 

I believe that government should be subsidising the cars and charging but not in the way it is currently being done. That only supports the companies able to draw down the grants.

I agree with this - a discount on the car price and free home charger installs are pretty good incentives. As are grants to help companies build public charging networks.

I'd like to see the home charger scheme expanded to include businesses (with the restriction on Type 2 socket only etc) and increased discounts on cars.

 

If ecology was a significant driving factor for the general public, every car on the market would already be getting close to 100mpg and Ecotricity and Good Energy would overwhelmingly dominate the power market.

I have to say that I quite like driving ICE cars - they are very different to EVs but there is something enjoyable about it. I believe that I am not unusual in this.

It looks like EVs are not going to be cheaper in the near future, and there is potential for them to become very expensive to drive (such as a tax on recharging).

If you discount the ecology reasons, and the subjective driving experience, and any possible financial reasons - what reason is there to choose an EV over an ICE? Are some people really so averse to the experience of using a petrol pump that they would by an EV just to avoid it?

 

I have to say that I quite like driving ICE cars - they are very different to EVs but there is something enjoyable about it. I believe that I am not unusual in this.

That depends a lot on the car in question. The i3 is a lot more fun to drive for me than the Leaf was, but I suspect a Mclaren would be even more fun.

It looks like EVs are not going to be cheaper in the near future, and there is potential for them to become very expensive to drive (such as a tax on recharging).

That is pure speculation on the taxation front. I've seen no such rumours.

If you discount the ecology reasons, and the subjective driving experience, and any possible financial reasons - what reason is there to choose an EV over an ICE? Are some people really so averse to the experience of using a petrol pump that they would by an EV just to avoid it?

Well, if you discount everything positive about EVs then yes. Why would you?

 

Alright alright, aside from lower running cost, better local air quality, more simple system, independence from oil, smoother and easier driving style, overall environmental impact, less noise pollution, less smells, less dirt, less complex DIY, better torque delivery... What have EVs ever done for us?

Just call me Reg.