I will getting a commando socket installed soon for the OHME charger.

my electrician has given me a couple of options.

1) install a henley block in the outside meter cupboard and run the armoured cable from there to the commando socket location.
2) Run the armoured cable from the main CU (in kitchen), Type A RCD and then to the commando socket

Commando socket will have an earth spike install.

Which option is best? thanks.

1 sounds better than 2 but I'd have thought that somewhere between the HB & the commando you'd need a mini CU.

 

Yeah. He mentioned a mini cu. But will put this on the b end (garage).

 

It will usually need a fuse at the meter end as well though. DNOs don't generally allow unprotected meter tails over about 3 metres from their fuse.
I expect your spark knows this and has it in the quote.

Personally this (option 1) is what I have. Keep the house CU for the house as far as possible.

 

I will getting a commando socket installed soon for the OHME charger.

my electrician has given me a couple of options.

1) install a henley block in the outside meter cupboard and run the armoured cable from there to the commando socket location.
2) Run the armoured cable from the main CU (in kitchen), Type A RCD and then to the commando socket

Commando socket will have an earth spike install.

Which option is best? thanks.

This is something I'm thinking of looking in to, would you mind giving an idea of the price that you've been quoted for this, to get some sort of ballpark figure of what to expect?

 

My friend is a leccy and will be doing the work on a weekend. Won't be a comparable price.

 

1) is better, but easier to just fit the Mini CU in the meter box if there's room otherwise you'll need both a switch fuse in the meter box -and- a mini CU in the garage.

 

Not sure if this helps or not, but I think the rules in the UK mean that a socket for charging cars needs an expensive type of circuit breaker. The rules are different for different countries, I know, but I remember that the UK was one of the places where they needed these things. the rules here are very similar to the UK, I think. although NSAI sort of reword things, a lot of them seem to have just followed what the UK has written.

 

DC RCD protection is required, but the Ohme implements this internally, so an external one is not needed.
The commando socket should have at least AC RCD protection though as it could potentially be used for other purposes.

 

Get switches seperated from consumer units that let's you turn all power off to the consumer units without removing the main fuse.

 

Yes but he needs to get his electricity supplier to arrange that, (if not already in situ), as despite his mate being a sparky he's not really allowed to go around breaking seals and pulling cut out fuses.

 

Thanks. I thought the rules in the UK applied to the installation, not things connected to it. Is this not the case? I know that when we put in some commercial vehicle power points, that were going to be used to charge electric vans, they had to have these things fitted (not cheap). I remember the electrical contractor getting hot under the collar about it, explaining that it did not matter what was likely to be plugged in, the power point still needed to have these things fitted. I think his argument was that someone could plug something different in, and that the installation still needed to be safe. I do know that he put his foot down and said he'd not sign them off without it (this was at a UK site).

 

Thanks. I thought the rules in the UK applied to the installation, not things connected to it.

It's a bit vague ... Intended or likely usage is the criteria, which is obviously malleable.

 

Im having my smart meter tomorrow. Would the engineer install an isolated switch? My current setup is like this

 

Ooh, that's a bit tight.
If the new meter is fitted near the top with new, longer tails from the fuse, then there should be room for a switch. But if the guy doesn't know about it beforehand he might well refuse.
If so at least try and get the meter put at the top with a Henley block to connect to the existing outgoing tails (which obviously won't reach much higher as they are). That'll give your sparks a fighting chance.

 

I've worked around rules and regulations most of my working life, do not always have a high opinion of them, but I have lerned over the years that safety rules are always there for a good reason. If a client mislead me to try and get a cheap job, and put safety on the line, he would be an ex-client. I've had it happen a few times. there is always the chancer that wants something done on the cheap, all well and good until it all goes tits up, especially if someone gets hurt.

 

Back from a cross-border dog walk (grand old mix of covid rules there) and my mate has promised to try and send me the rules that apply in the UK later tonight. they are the same here, too, he reckons that the NSAI boys just copy the UK rules and tinker with them a bit to make them less English. He did say there was no ambiguity, and that any electrical kit installed to charge cars had to comply, with no exceptions.

I got the lowdown on what we'd needed to do on a UK project, and he told me that the connections we put in were all three phase industrial connectors. They could be connected to portable boxes that charged the trucks, with the whole shebang being arranged this way as the client was not sure where the electric trucks would be parked up. It was more cost effective to just fit connectors all over the place, than fit chargers everywhere. The point he did make was that the UK rules mandated that any connector installed to charge a car, truck or whatever had to have this expensive Type B device. no electrician could sign off one that doesn't, because of liability etc. To me that reads as anyone that doesn't fit a Type B device to a connector that is to be used to charge a car is not complying with the rules. I have no idea what happens with domestic stuff if the rules are broken, but for a workplace I know that laws would be broken in most countries. Not sure if it comes under the health and safety stuff, but whataever, it does not seem a safe thing to do.

 

To me that reads as anyone that doesn't fit a Type B device to a connector that is to be used to charge a car is not complying with the rules.

That's what I said. But if it's not for that purpose the rule is different.
And as Dr House used to say, "Everybody lies".

I think it's a daft situation, but that's where it's at for now.

 

Disappointing install today. Engineer was prepared to fit an isolation switch but couldn't due to lack of room and also wasn't up for installing a Henley block.

 

Not unexpected.
I think your man will have to fit a 'floating' Henley block, extra tails up the side of the meter to a switch/fuse in the top of the box.
Then get the SWA out from there

If the SWA was run to the kitchen unit, is there space there to fit a Henley and switch/fuse rather than going into the existing CU?

 

the main CU is on the other-side of the wall to the external meter box. Problem is that's low down and buried behind a kitchen unit. For example if I need to switch the power off, I have to take a load of pots and pans out then stretch my arm into the cupboard and press the switch. So it's in a horrendous location.

Regarding the henley block. Can my electrician put this in-between the current tails going into the CU. I thought he wouldn't be allowed to pull the main fuse out to kill the power? thanks.

 

Regarding the henley block. Can my electrician put this in-between the current tails going into the CU. I thought he wouldn't be allowed to pull the main fuse out to kill the power? thanks.

It has to be after the meter, so in the existing CU tails is the only option.

You'll have to ask him if will pull the main fuse. Some have official authorization to do it and reseal.
Some will call the DNO to organise it, which gets tedious and costly.
Some just do it and leave it unsealed, which is perfectly safe, just not legit - there could be consequences but AFAIK it's rarely more than some tutting years down the line.

Never, ever break the seal on the meter or let anyone else do so.

 

thanks I will let him know. As I mentioned before I have a friend coming to do this on a week (he's a leccy). So don't want him to agree and it turns out to be a job he later regrets.

 

Does every single portable charger include the type B protection device, then? My understanding (from what I have been told yesterday), is that the majority do not. I know this to be the case for the portable chargers being used by one of our clients, as this did come up in the conversation yesterday. Reading through the UK rules that were sent to me last night, they seem to be pretty clear, it is definitely the connection that needs the protection, there'd no mention about anything that might be plugged in. The phrase used is something like "any outlet used for electric vehicle charging must have" with a list of stuff needed, including mention of the type B device. My contractor friend was also very clear about this, his exact words were that he'd want to cover his arse, and could never trust a client to always plug in something that fixed a failing in the installation.

 

The phrase used is something like

You need to tell us what it actually says.

he'd want to cover his arse,

Fair enough.
But that may mean he uses a much stricter interpretation of the regs than is required. It doesn't mean he's right.

 

I have tried to cut and paste what he has sent me, but the text will not copy, it is locked, somehow. it is too long for me to try and re-type it all out, but the bit of the rules starts with these words, that seem to make it clear that they apply to any circuit for charging an electric car. I've been told that these rules apply only to the fixed part of an installation, not anything plugged in to it. The first part describes what the rules cover, and it says this

"722.1 Scope

The particular requirements of this section apply to circuits intended to supply electric vehicles for charging purposes.

The requirements of this section do not apply to electric vehicle charging points that:

(i) employ inductive charging

(ii) charge mobility scooters and similar vehicles of 10 A and less."

There is then a lot of stuff about protection from shocks, and I think this is the bit about the type B device

"722.531.3.101 Unless supplied by a circuit using the protective measure of electrical separation, each charging point incorporating a socket-outlet or vehicle connector complying with the BS EN 62196 series shall be protected by an RCD having a rated residual operating current not exceeding 30 mA.

Except where provided by the EV charging equipment, protection against DC fault currents shall be provided by:

(i) an RCD Type B, or

(ii) an RCD Type A or Type F in conjunction with a residual direct current detecting device (RDC-DD) complying with BS IEC 62955 as appropriate to the nature of the residual and superimposed currents and recommendation of the manufacturer of the charging equipment.

RCDs shall comply with one of the following standards: BS EN 61008-1, BS EN 61009-1, BS EN 60947-2 or BS EN 62423"

Any "socket outlet" needs this protection, as a portable charger is not "equipment", it is classed as an "appliance". The definition of stuff matters a great deal, I'm sure. the people that write rules like this are always very picky about the words they use in my experience. If there was no "socket outlet" and the "charging equipment" was part of the circuit, then it may be that the type B device is not needed. If the wording read "Except where provided by the EV charging appliance", then the meaning would be different, and the argument that a "socket outlet" doesn't need this device seems valid.

 

intended

This is the problem - it's a loophole.

Except where provided by the EV charging equipment, protection against DC fault currents shall be provided by:

Any "socket outlet" needs this protection, as a portable charger is not "equipment", it is classed as an "appliance".

That's interesting. I'll leave that for @mikeselectricstuff or someone. Getting beyond my pay grade.

And maybe that's the motivation for an ultra-strict interpretation of the regs.

I'd prefer to see the regs written to not be interpretable.
Given that EVs are almost certain to be everywhere in the next decade, and that these circuits can be expected to be around for much longer than that, I think every new outlet installed that could potentially be used for vehicle charging - outdoors or near a doorway for example - should be installed to those specifications. Remove the "intended" bit altogether.

 

Beyond mine, too!

I can ask the question again about "equipment" versus "appliance", as the man really knows his stuff, and has already gone out of his way to answer the questions from our walk yesterday. However, I still have the scars from the long arguments with the team about whether this was needed for all the connectors we put in, and I am sure that if there was a loop hole it would have been found, given the costs that were involved. I know that the original quote from the contractors didn't allow for the extra cost, they had assumed that the connector installation was just like any other. They got stung quite hard having to carry the extra cost, may even have lost money on the job.

 

Going back to the original question, if local regs/people insist that a commando would need a Type B RCD as it;s used for EV charging, a possible cheaper option would be to just hard-wire the Ohme instead of using a socket.