[Rau1327]

Tbh I’d be happy to pay a toll system like they do in Norway but simply introducing it without implementing wider measures would detriment some people. There needs to be a holistic approach - greater government incentives to switch to EVs, a much better funded and more accessible public transport system for those that live in a place they can benefit from them. Gubmint will need to dig into the pockets to make a realistic ecologically sound future.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The problem with public transport is that the private companies running it tend not to run services to areas where there are only a few customers. Here the only public transport we have is a community minibus that runs one trip two days a week, and even that only comes to within about a mile of us. There used to be a bus service, years ago, but that, together with all the bus stops, got taken away bit by bit over the years, as the companies running it have sought to cut costs.

 

[Christophe E-Niro]

The problem with public transport is that the private companies running it tend not to run services to areas where there are only a few customers. Here the only public transport we have is a community minibus that runs one trip two days a week, and even that only comes to within about a mile of us. There used to be a bus service, years ago, but that, together with all the bus stops, got taken away bit by bit over the years, as the companies running it have sought to cut costs.

I took the bus for 3-4 years but then the operator stopped, only leaving their competitors to operate that route.
But taking the bus is a nightmare:

• my stops are not on the schedule tables
• taking the A bus at different time, and it goes somewhere else
• if you know you need to take the 13h37 bus but not the 13h45, how do you know which bus it is when it arrives a 13:45 (is the 13h37 a tad late ?). Knowing the final destination does not help as the route can be different depending on the time you take the bus
• bus do leave their stops early, many times I arrived at the bus stop on time, only to see them leave a couple of minutes early just before I can reach them
• sometimes bus do not show up at all (sick driver with no replacement)
• the current operator take students (the other one didn't but stopped operating) so sometimes the bus is full and you'd have to wait for the next one
• As the buses are nearly full, you need to stand up for 30 minutes to an hour before being able to find a seat.

This mess needs to be sorted out if public transport is to be encouraged.

So for the last 4 years, I've taken the car again.

 

[Miyzo]

I live in London, lots of public transport but overcrowded, overpriced, dirty, crazy people have made me buy an EV. Not only that but it actually takes me less time to do what I need to do driving in traffic, for someone that’s time poor also, this is a huge benefit. And yes, if car drivers are taxed for using the roads then I think all other road users should be too. Especially when other road users outnumber cars, especially in London.

Reading up on it this morning they were suggesting tracking usage so that people pay according to time and distance travelled. Except most councils have setup up camera traps in the most unlikely places to deter rat runs and congestion so you’re forced onto the main roads where the most congestion is (usually where all the social housing is located). I abhor this level of monitoring.

 

[Crypto_Kid]

Just increase the tax on tyres, everyone needs tyres, the more you use them the more you pay, according to a report in the DM they are the major cause of 2.5 pm pollution so you kill two birds with one stone. They also need to introduce a vignette system for foreign vehicles like they do in Romania etc.

Wont work. for 1 as soon as they announced it people like me would buy 10 years of tyres and store them. The price of tyres would become silly expensive to replace the "average" tax take, so would hit the poor and low miles drivers way more. As no other EU country will have this tax it will become a thing to drive to Calais , buy a set of tyres, and drive them back to evade the tax.

The taxes on fuel is very stealthy , the amounts spent can be as low as £5 to £100. With tyres you will need something like £100 tyre tax, so the poor sap with a 15 year old Fiesta goes from £50 a tyre to £150 tyre, £600 a set, in one hit, more than their car is worth.

Yet they probably gradually pay £400 in fuel taxes every year and never notice.

 

[dk6780]

The problem with public transport is that the private companies running it tend not to run services to areas where there are only a few customers. Here the only public transport we have is a community minibus that runs one trip two days a week, and even that only comes to within about a mile of us. There used to be a bus service, years ago, but that, together with all the bus stops, got taken away bit by bit over the years, as the companies running it have sought to cut costs.

It's chicken and egg - as more people get cars and the service gets worse then the cost per passenger increases hugely. Covid has killed most of the remaining services in Herefordshire as the operators cannot even break even despite the subsidies. So my nearest bus stops 3 miles away if I walk across the fields (which are very muddy and its dark when I commute), or 5 miles by roads which have no footpath and often no verges. But most properties are occupied by relatively well off people with cars, and at least five different supermarkets will deliver (Iceland to Waitrose). Once a week there is a "dial a ride" community minibus that again is suffering from a lack of use. So how can the cycle be broken, particularly for those too infirm to cycle (which is only safe for MAMILs in groups)?

 

[Smitten]

But only “wealthy” people can afford EVs. Those who can only afford a £500 second hand car, old and polluting, will be hit the most.

Chances are any car that old isn't going to pass its MOT and isn't going to be allowed inside any of the new clean air zones being set up around the UK either. Paying by the mile and engine size is fair and for most would be broadly similar in cost to road tax but for some who drive high mileage in polluting vehicles it would become a lot more expensive.

 

[Voltohm]

In my rural Derbyshire village we still have a 2 hourly bus service by a Nottingham based operator, presently subsidised by the County Council, but they have reduced the subsidy and state they will not be able to increase it (despite recently creating a new 'Chief Executive' post at £176k a year!) in the future, maybe not even maintain it, so the service will undoubtedly stop. Having a car is therefore virtually essential for retirees such as myself as the nearest stop is half a mile away so supermarket trips lugging bags from the bus stop to home is out for us. City dwellers with decent public transport may have the option of not owning a car, but we and others like us would be stuffed without one, and we're not interested in having the supermarket deliver our groceries.
Keith.

 

[dk6780]

Wont work. for 1 as soon as they announced it people like me would buy 10 years of tyres and store them. The price of tyres would become silly expensive to replace the "average" tax take, so would hit the poor and low miles drivers way more. As no other EU country will have this tax it will become a thing to drive to Calais , buy a set of tyres, and drive them back to evade the tax.

The taxes on fuel is very stealthy , the amounts spent can be as low as £5 to £100. With tyres you will need something like £100 tyre tax, so the poor sap with a 15 year old Fiesta goes from £50 a tyre to £150 tyre, £600 a set, in one hit, more than their car is worth.

Yet they probably gradually pay £400 in fuel taxes every year and never notice.

If a set of tyres lasts only 20,000 miles even for a car doing 45MPG that equates to around £1,400 tax, so £350/tyre.

It would be possible to have tyres marked as "duty paid" like cigarettes and alcohol, but the incentive to wear tyres past safe limits would be huge, particularly on @Crypto_Kid 's example of a 15 year old Fiesta worth less than £600.

The incremental nature of tax paid on fuel makes it very easy ignore, and as the advert for the monthly Direct debit on the TV Licence pointed out we pay very few bills on an annual basis (or less as might be the case for tyres given the average annual mileage of 7,000).

 

[dk6780]

we're not interested in having the supermarket deliver our groceries

There are different models for having supermarket deliveries, including ones where you shop in person and leave the bags for them to drop off later. Fifty years ago that sufficed for my Mother who didn't drive and the nearest shop was many miles away.

 

[HugoCurran]

If you have a straight mileage charge how would you allow for miles driven outside the UK. I normally do around 2000+ miles every year in France/Switzerland/Germany. My total mileage is around 10000, so 20% of my miles aren't even on UK roads.

 

[dk6780]

Record the mileage at the border/port?

 

[CampGareth]

In my rural Derbyshire village we still have a 2 hourly bus service by a Nottingham based operator, presently subsidised by the County Council, but they have reduced the subsidy and state they will not be able to increase it (despite recently creating a new 'Chief Executive' post at £176k a year!) in the future, maybe not even maintain it, so the service will undoubtedly stop. Having a car is therefore virtually essential for retirees such as myself as the nearest stop is half a mile away so supermarket trips lugging bags from the bus stop to home is out for us. City dwellers with decent public transport may have the option of not owning a car, but we and others like us would be stuffed without one, and we're not interested in having the supermarket deliver our groceries.
Keith.

What if you got an exemption? 5k miles per year tax free because you genuinely need to drive. That'll reduce your tax bill overall as today everyone is taxed flatly on petrol.

I don't want to stop people who genuinely need cars being able to drive, but I do want people to think of cars as a cost per mile or trip so they can evaluate it against alternatives. That £10 return train ticket sounds expensive when I could drive for 'free', but it's only free because the costs are hidden in fuel, insurance, parking, maintenance and depreciation. In reality the car trip could be more expensive, it'd be nice to know up front.

 

[Voltohm]

There are different models for having supermarket deliveries, including ones where you shop in person and leave the bags for them to drop off later. Fifty years ago that sufficed for my Mother who didn't drive and the nearest shop was many miles away.

Our youngest Daughter is a Tesco delivery driver, but we don't shop at Tesco and she doesn't cover our area anyway. I might be odd, but I prefer to pick what I want, not someone to pick it for me, and not heard of the system you mention where you shop then let them deliver your bags for you, don't think that's available in our area. When I was a kid well over 60 years ago and lived in a town, we had a local grocer who took an order a week in advance then delivered it the following week, together with collecting next weeks order, I suppose the current system is just a variation on this.
Keith.

 

[motco]

I am wary of the 'pollution caused' option because what they call pollution and what is really pollution are not the same. 'They' lump CO2 in with particulates and oxides of nitrogen etc., as if they are all harmful to health. CO2 may well be a harmful greenhouse gas (or not but that's beyond the scope of this thread) but it is most certainly not pollution in the accepted sense. Mileage driven and perhaps vehicle size would be fairer.

 

[dk6780]

Our youngest Daughter is a Tesco delivery driver, but we don't shop at Tesco and she doesn't cover our area anyway. I might be odd, but I prefer to pick what I want, not someone to pick it for me, and not heard of the system you mention where you shop then let them deliver your bags for you, don't think that's available in our area. When I was a kid well over 60 years ago and lived in a town, we had a local grocer who took an order a week in advance then delivered it the following week, together with collecting next weeks order, I suppose the current system is just a variation on this.
Keith.

Locally to me two small independents offer the service as do the larger supermarkets Co-Op and Iceland.

Edited to add - these aren't the cheapest shops in my opinion but those are much further away and require a car.

 

[CampGareth]

I am wary of the 'pollution caused' option because what they call pollution and what is really pollution are not the same. 'They' lump CO2 in with particulates and oxides of nitrogen etc., as if they are all harmful to health. CO2 may well be a harmful greenhouse gas (or not but that's beyond the scope of this thread) but it is most certainly not pollution in the accepted sense. Mileage driven and perhaps vehicle size would be fairer.

What about vehicle efficiency on a WLTP cycle instead of size? Tax a 70mpg car less than a 50mpg car, since that encourages smaller cars as a side effect.

 

[dk6780]

Which brings us back to taxing energy on the basis that is good surrogate for not just the efficiency of the vehicle but also the driver. It is possible to get the consumption of a Toyota Prius to be lower than a BMW M3 when driven at the same speed.

 

[CampGareth]

Except taxing energy makes it harder to make the system fair. A disabled pensioner pays the same rate for electricity as the wealthiest business owner, just as with petrol. Maybe you could exempt a particular charge point but that's open to abuse, type 2 to household socket adapters etc. Edit: ooh, red diesel is a good example but that's tightly controlled.

I think the current flat rate on petrol is what allows the wealthy to drive vehicles getting 1mpg, the tax rate doesn't scale up enough to discourage that waste of fuel.

 

[Stripy]

Put it on the fuel - there more you use the more you pay.
if that’s not viable, pay more the older the vehicle is, and let it follow price index, too

The difficult part is to find that point where the bill is balanced equally with fairness. Not easy 😔