considering the prices of used leaf's I think they are for everyone now.

i mean new cars are generally for people with money or those who love debt, i don't think the EV changes anything, at least not now, initially i feel it was just for wealthy people, but with the crazy pcp deals i feel pretty much most people can afford them

not facts just my opinion

 

Fair comment Stead. And will still want to get one sometime! :-D

 

Well, EV's aren't free so, yes, EV's are for people with money, can't disagree, just like beer and iphones. Assuming you have *some* money then if you want one you have to find something that fits your budget - for some that will be a secondhand Leaf or Zoe or i-Miev for others it will be a brand new P90 Tesla or BMW i8. Doesn't matter, as long as it doesn't burn old dino juice it's all good!

 

My leaf is costing less per month than my low spec diesel did 10 years ago. Just in terms of the earning power required to own one they're cheap.

Sure, I could get an ICE cheap now as well, but since an EV was in my range and I wanted one, I ordered one. I'm not badly off - I aint stacking shelves at tescos, but far from rich.

 

@Martin W You're right about another thing, when EV ownership is large enough it will have an impact on HM Gov's coffers because they'll lose tax revenue from fuel duty and road tax. There's no way they'll allow themselves to lose out so yes they'll find some way to claw it back. Their problem is you can't tax electricity as a fuel in any simple way so it will probably be something new, like road pricing with ANPR cameras and similar 1984 crap like that.

 

We offer Renault ZOEs from £150 to £200 per month fuel included - that's hard to beat with an ICE.

 

Really?? My first car cost £500 total, I kept it on the road for 2 years by fixing the thing my self. A lot of the time I couldn't afford to fill up the car to full.

£200 a month spare to spend on a car is a fortune for many people.

 

Given that 38% of households in the UK do not have access to a car, then it is clear that cars are not for everyone. A significant proportion of the 38% are people who cannot afford them. EVs are at the high end of the market - certainly beyond most people's budget. So yes, EV's are for people with money. I have to say that this whole forum absolutely oozes privilege, to be honest.

 

I have to say that this whole forum absolutely oozes privilege, to be honest.

Ooh, harsh.

There are EV owners on here who are far from wealthy and own them for their very low running costs. There are others who have two brand new Tesla's (and other posh cars besides) and change them every year or two. I consider myself fortunate to be comfortable, but hardly privileged, so probably somewhere in the middle.

I think there's actually very wide cross-section of people on here, who come at the whole EV thing for a wide number of reasons.

 

Works for me, we were spending £200 on diesel every month. My Leaf is £230 and we now only spend £25 a month on diesel. So we have another car for virtually free.

 

When petrol was £1 a gallon (remember those?) and my Cortina did 25mpg, puking toxic blue smoke, I suppose that was about 4p a mile. Now my journeys cost closer to 2p a mile. Cars, air travel, central heating, fridges, computers, mobile phones, glass windows and electricity all started as luxuries for the wealthiest. It's just manufacturing economics - when volumes are small costs are higher, but every iteration brings higher volume, better quality at lower prices. Bring on the future and make it snappy!

 

Thats amazing. It costs 1/2 the price in fuel to running cortina in the 70s!!

 

Don't forget by definition most EV's are pretty new, only a few years old, so the secondhand market is pretty small and the cars still quite expensive - there are no 5-8 year old 'bangers' (sparklers??) around to provide affordable cheap motoring for a few £k. All those shiny new Leafs, i3's and Teslas will move out into the secondhand market and depreciation will eventually bring them within reach of many more buyers in time. I would suggest it is almost a duty of those wealthy enough to afford it to run at least *one* EV and then move it on after a few years in order to get the secondhand market going, thus getting EV's into the ownership of people who wouldn't normally buy brand new or nearly new cars. Even outside the small EV world, the number of people who buy a brand new ICE is a small percentage of the total number of people who buy a car each year.

 

You can get a i-miev clone for less than £5k or a gen1 Leaf for £7k.

And that's for a car with no road tax and barely any fuel costs. If you do any sort of commute, then they're hard to beat for cost savings where a reliable car is needed. Or you could buy a similar aged Ford Focus for £5k and spend £1,500 on fuel and £130 on road tax each and every year.

Sure, they're not in the £1k banger territory - yet, but they're affordable to most people aged 25+ in employment IF they want one.

 

Considering the top bus ticket round here is £1120/yr and you would still need taxi's, trains, etc to do the trips outside their schedule/network, it's not exactly a big jump to an ev. Take a 5k i-miev. Depreciation is pretty much nothing, tax is free, electricity is at worst a couple of quid a day if you pay for it (so £730/yr if you only charge on the highest rate at home and use it full to empty every day of the year), insurance is cheap and consumeables like brakes/tyres last ages.

So lets recap - bus ticket £1120, train tickets - lets say £50 twice a year (being nice), taxi's £5-£15 a pop around 20 times a year, etc - let's pretend it's £1500.
I-miev - Insurance depends on who you are but in general £250 seems reasonable. Fuel £730, general repairs, mot, etc around £200. Lets say depreciation is £320 because we have to put something down.
Hmm.
Not too sure on my maths but it looks like ev's aren't all that costly. Exactly the same cost as catching the bus.
Without the inconvenience of having to sit in a puddle of someone else's wee while someone smokes weed behind you as you wonder if you're going to get mugged. Presuming there's a bus that happens to be going the right way at the right time. And you don't mind taking whatever route it happens to be on.

Think of the savings on footwear and cleaning aswell as the health benefits.

Or just change the numbers above so the ev uses £200 of fuel and doesn't depreciate (i-miev's don't seem to have gone down at all over the last year or two) then laugh that you're over £1k better off than someone on the bus.

 

What we are witnessing is a change in technology because the internal combustion engine has reached it's peak rather like steam locomotives did.
Yes there are seemingly wealthy people buying ev and some like me who are not so. But we all want to be part of that technological change. It is what people do, they take an interest in change.
Back in December 2010 I became aware of that change from the uptake of battery powered two wheel vehicles in China. By the end of 2011 I had purchased my Leaf. But my first feeling on seeing a Leaf in the showroom was just how ordinary a family car it is and the commitment by Nissan that must be behind bringing such a car to market.
So at no point did I feel I was entering a rich man's world. I simply wanted to be part of that technological change.
End of August 2015 I was back in Haikou China and now battery powered two wheeled vehicles totally dominate the streets to the extent that you have to pinch yourself.

 

Are Ev's for people with money? Having been on here a little while, I noticed that money doesn't seem to be much of an issue?
What I mean is, that Ev's are for a niche market and not for everyone, will they ever be?

Your observation is 100% valid..

If we did survey of average household incomes on this forum...I suspect it'll be well north of the £30,000 post tax income of the 'average' UK house hold with 2 kids.

BUT that's really to be expected of any new tech - The so called 'early adopter' tax. This is most obvious with a Tesla but even a Leaf is damn expensive compared to a £500 banger.

I wasn't born in the UK but I do notice here people seem to be shy about declaring their success based on their earnings, which is why I think many on here don't like to think them selves as been 'rich' or well off. We are certainly well off compared to our neighbours, but both of us work every other weekend, so there is a price we're paying for bringing in the £££.

I recently had the option to halve my working hours to do a 9-5 job rather than my current 60hrs+ but it would have meant a 50% drop in income. I would love to have taken the 9-5 job but I want a Model S too much, and that means I need to earn plenty of ££££. Maybe in 12 months when I got a S ill reassess the situation, but than there is the next run of the housing ladder to climb .

EV prices will fall, and sooner than many people think. But for now, I agree with you, EVs are really for people with money - no matter how unwilling some people here wish to classify themselves as above average earners (£30k joint household income).

 

Just what is the technology change that we refer to as the uptake of EV that we in particular here on this forum take an interest in?
It has taken me the past four years realise it is simply that electric motors will turn the wheels of the majority our cars in the future.
All other issues, important and consequential as they may be, are just part of that fundamental change.
So whether it be BEVs or PHEVs (ice or hfc), how tax is raised, how much motoring costs as part of incomes etc. electric motors will turn the wheels of our cars.

 

I think there is a lot of truth that EVs are far more suited to people with private parking in driveways and garages. Therefore people in traditionally cheaper housing (no driveway or garage) are less likely to want or benefit from an EV. I am in the latter category but I have an EV anyway because there are free chargepoints in the vicinity of my home and workplace.

A car that screams "you would find it easier if you had your own driveway" is always going to risk being seen as a niche car for well-off people with driveways, regardless of the actual affordability of buying and running one (which is in fact very attractive to middle income people like me).

But let's not wage class war on this thread.

 

I guess it depends on what cheaper housing consists of?

Council houses from the 30's abound in most towns and most semi detatched council houses will have a driveway and thus be ok for an EV.

The problem arises with the terrace houses or flats where there is unlikely to be available or offered.

I don't think it's an money thing, I think it's a lack of awareness thing or even possibly an education thing? How many people moan about petrol costs yet drive around in a 2.5 litre 4x4? There are choices out there but whether people choose them is another matter.

And are we assuming the extremes of rich and poor here? We're choosing the absolutely poorest people to compare EV ownership against, but what about those hard working folk on minimum wage or above, but not quite on the £26k 'average' wage. These are the people who would buy a £5k Astra and struggle with the fuel costs. An EV would help. Buy an old Leaf instead and have no fuel costs.

It's an education thing, and Clarkson spouting his sh1te doesn't help as these are the people who believe him.

 

I don't think it's an money thing

On some streets around where I live your struggle to find a car worth more than £1k let alone £5k. For these people there it's 100% about the money, I'm sure they would all love a new Leaf rather than a clapped out Almera.

Around where I work (less than 2 miles away from where I live), there's already a handful of Model S around, and plenty of other flash metal. Infact most of my work colleagues and friends makes a rather odd face when I tell them I'm happily(sort off) driving around in a Nissan Leaf.

EVs are the future, but currently prices are restrictive. When battery prices than adoption rates will go up .

 

At the moment, EVs are best suited to households with more than one car and off street parking. Of course you can own one without those things but it requires a degree of commitment that many people won't make.

As range increases, having an EV as your only car will become much more acceptable and the costs will reduce as battery production ramps up. The simplicity of these vehicles make then cheap to service.

As far as I can see, the main issue to be solved is charging for those how can't do it cheaply at home overnight.

 

EV's are new technology and they are already outperforming ICE cars.
Performance will only improve over time, as will the range.
I see EV's vs. ICE a bit like smartphones vs. dumbphones. They are superior technology and eventually everyone will have one.
As to the cost, I bought second hand and the fuel savings have returned over a third of the cost of the car.
In its lifetime it will have easily paid for itself.
If you aren't convinced test drive one, then you will understand why everyone loves them.

 

There is a world of difference between people struggling to run a £200 banger and people spending even "just" £5000 on a second hand EV. So yes, the OP is correct, currently EVs are too expensive for a large number of people.

People struggling along at the bottom can't look at "fuel savings" as they don't have £5000 just lying around to spend ...

 

Two years ago I thought the same then whilst doing a bit of idle time on autotrader.co.uk I saw the price of used Leafs. Then followed some quick maths and bingo a three year old 5K Leaf for £ 9, 500 . I then traded up after losing £ 1,500 in depreciation but saved £800 in fuel and £ 130 in tax compared to an economical Jazz.
Due to a change in job the fuel savings will be greater this year. My wages are average and I want them to be used in an efficient manor and I think the Leaf has been a good decision on so many levels. Not just financially but comfort and performance.

 

This morning in Chelmsford around 9am there was an Outlander in front of me.
I could see exhaust smoke so realised it had just started out and I double checked it was a PHEV.
Could be a case of forgetting to plug-in last night. Could be it never gets plugged in.
You don't need a driveway or a place to plug-in to own an EV.
In time we will all be driving EV, rich and poor.
EV's really are that good.
There is no need to worry.

 

Could be a case of forgetting to plug-in last night. Could be it never gets plugged in.

More than likely it was the heater that was set to more than 15c. Or the radio was up too loud, or the wipers were on, or any of the other stupid reasons that make the car decide to turn its engine on.

 

When I first bought the Leaf I was asked "how long do you think before you make your money back?" I said I don't expect to and when will they make their money back on their ICE? Motoring isn't cheap but experience has shown me that an EV is more efficient. Due to the cars not having been around too long there aren't many very cheap ones around but there soon will be.

Due to a change in circumstances we needed a second car and doing some looking around and some sums a new Zoe on PCP was better than buying a used ICE due to fuel costs.

It does seem odd to me that a to of conversations I've had about price compare the price of a new EV to a used ICE, not sure why.

 

Are Ev's for people with money? Having been on here a little while, I noticed that money doesn't seem to be much of an issue?
What I mean is, that Ev's are for a niche market and not for everyone, will they ever be?

It sure is an issue in Chez Donald!

The cars themselves make financial sense in many situation. Not all, of course, everyone's situation is slightly different. There's little need to have a large cash amount upfront either, with PCPs being what they are.

But something you are right at hinting at is that you really need off-street parking with the possibility of setting up a charging point there. This does tend to rule out people who cannot 'afford' a house with a driveway (I say 'afford' because we have a house on a mortgage because we'd not be able to afford to rent!!! ). But some people choose not to live in such a house too. It is a mixed picture.

Having an EV might well make more sense for some subset of people 'without money', I don't see it as a how-much-money thing anymore with so many PCPs and 2nd hand EVs around.

I've never thought about money as something to have or not have, just how well you manage what you've got. Mrs Donald does very well reigning in the domestic budget and I think I hold up my own side of it. We just use our money more efficiently (most of the time, with a few exceptions/ purchasing mistakes), more than people with more money than us it seems, which includes recognising where an EV can contribute to that efficiency.