I have a 2019 e-niro with about 28,500 on the clock. It had the reduction box replaced at around 13,000 and has been fine since. I’m trying to decide whether to upgrade to a newer model, and thus put the end-of-warranty decision a few years further down the road, or to hang on in there and brave out the no warranty situation. Any thoughts?
Keeping car when warranty expires?
Morrisoff
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Yes, and you can reuse the original sealing washer at least once.
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2nd oil change, quite surprised how dark the oil was. Did 2nd oil change on my previous ioniq and came out pretty clear. Oh, and reused the original sealing washer no issues.
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Vortex sump plugs. 1.1litres oil or there abouts.
Bizarrely, I found the magnetic plugs that Toyota use cheaper from a user on eBay in Australia. Didn't take long to turn up either.
Bizarrely, I found the magnetic plugs that Toyota use cheaper from a user on eBay in Australia. Didn't take long to turn up either.
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Cheers - I'm sure I read you saying you experimented with 75W-80 stuff and it made the car quieter. Can't remember where, either on this forum or another.... Did you come to any conclusions on that one?
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I was going to go into more details about that but thought it better not to bore everyone. Yes, I've been using 75W-80 for nearly 4 months experimentally and I love it as it's drives noticeably quieter. I'm not seeing any measurable loss of efficiency and no unusual noises. I have yet to pull the magnetic plugs and check the metal loading but I'm optimistic it will be fine. That'll be done later this year.
Technically a 70W (or ATF) is the correct viscosity for the input gear meshing rate at 160 km/h but since I don't exceed 100 km/h (60 mph) it's a safe bet to increase the viscosity proportionally. Another factor is that local ambient temps rarely go under 5°C where the car is designed to handle about -30°C. If it were too thick I'd hear a soft whine when it's cold and that's not been evident. The gearbox surface temperature is the same as it was with the 70W, 40-45°C.
So, it's up to you if you want to try it based on your situation. I'd guess it would be fine if you're cruising speeds are not too high. I can see Redline, Motul and Liqui Moly makes this GL-4 grade.
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Technically a 70W (or ATF) is the correct viscosity for the input gear meshing rate at 160 km/h but since I don't exceed 100 km/h (60 mph) it's a safe bet to increase the viscosity proportionally. Another factor is that local ambient temps rarely go under 5°C where the car is designed to handle about -30°C. If it were too thick I'd hear a soft whine when it's cold and that's not been evident. The gearbox surface temperature is the same as it was with the 70W, 40-45°C.
So, it's up to you if you want to try it based on your situation. I'd guess it would be fine if you're cruising speeds are not too high. I can see Redline, Motul and Liqui Moly makes this GL-4 grade.
2024 Genesis GV60 sport AWD (was Kia E-Niro 64kWh '4' since 9/2020)
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I’m considering maybe changing my oil, not fully decided yet. I’m at just 13K miles and 4y. I like the idea of using the thicker stuff perhaps. I never do long high speed runs these days.
My concerns might be what if subsequently I had the fault occur but still under warranty. They could then perhaps see that the oil has been replaced with non Kia stuff (and also confirmed by the non Kia magnetic sump plug). So even though changing the oil should obviously help reduce the risk of the fault appearing, they might still claim it voids the warranty and use it as an excuse not to honour it! The warranty T&Cs clearly state that only 100% original Kia parts are to be used. Also, replacing the gear oil is not part of the standard maintenance routine.
What colour was the original fit factory oil? (Even though I know it will probably go black anyway)
Are the typical replacement oils visibly a different colour? (I know some are red and some just “normal“ oil tan colour).
If I do decide to do it, I would presumably have to buy 2 x 1L bottles to cover the 1.1L fill. (BTW I’m surprised at the very low oil quantity! I’ve had motorbike gearboxes that hold way more than this!)
Thanks for the links to the mag drain plug and washers. I’ve ordered one Toyota plug from oz anyway. Should I have ordered 2 plugs? Does the fill/level plug magnet usefully pick up any additional particles in practice?
I’ve not yet looked underneath. Are the drain and fill plugs easy to get to? I have a large 300cc syringe that I could probably attach some tube to for injecting the replacement oil into the side plug. I assume you just fill it till it overflows?
Just one final question, why is the sloppy/loose fit of the original internal sump magnet considered a problem? Surely it will still do its job won’t it? (Providing it doesn’t come adrift of course, that would be a total disaster). Cheers. Peter.
My concerns might be what if subsequently I had the fault occur but still under warranty. They could then perhaps see that the oil has been replaced with non Kia stuff (and also confirmed by the non Kia magnetic sump plug). So even though changing the oil should obviously help reduce the risk of the fault appearing, they might still claim it voids the warranty and use it as an excuse not to honour it! The warranty T&Cs clearly state that only 100% original Kia parts are to be used. Also, replacing the gear oil is not part of the standard maintenance routine.
What colour was the original fit factory oil? (Even though I know it will probably go black anyway)
Are the typical replacement oils visibly a different colour? (I know some are red and some just “normal“ oil tan colour).
If I do decide to do it, I would presumably have to buy 2 x 1L bottles to cover the 1.1L fill. (BTW I’m surprised at the very low oil quantity! I’ve had motorbike gearboxes that hold way more than this!)
Thanks for the links to the mag drain plug and washers. I’ve ordered one Toyota plug from oz anyway. Should I have ordered 2 plugs? Does the fill/level plug magnet usefully pick up any additional particles in practice?
I’ve not yet looked underneath. Are the drain and fill plugs easy to get to? I have a large 300cc syringe that I could probably attach some tube to for injecting the replacement oil into the side plug. I assume you just fill it till it overflows?
Just one final question, why is the sloppy/loose fit of the original internal sump magnet considered a problem? Surely it will still do its job won’t it? (Providing it doesn’t come adrift of course, that would be a total disaster). Cheers. Peter.
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The earlier done the less damage the bearings suffer. I changed mine first at the equivalent of 11,800 miles.
Many Kona and Niro owners over the years have expressed this same theoretical concern but no one has ever reported a problem, noting that I'm aware of only one case of a WoF noise starting several months after the oil was changed. In many cases dealers have been on-board with adding magnetic plugs, less so with oil changes, perhaps because they're at some legal risk recommending work that deviates from the official maintenance schedule.
The OEM oil is "clear brown" as are all the other brands except the Redline which is pink. As you note the oil will be black anyway after a few thousand miles.
You can always leave off the magnetic plugs entirely or use external magnets stuck onto the stock drain plugs as many others have done. The oil change is the more critical step, IMO.
The gen-2 models have three times the oil capacity which dilutes the contamination. 'We are where we are' with the design we both have.
Unexpectedly to me the magnetic plug at the filler location has been picking up sightly less metal than the drain location at every one of the 5 changes I've done. I anticipate this is only due to the very-low magnetic attraction of the wear particles. They drop to the bottom when the car is parked, find the magnet and remain there ongoing.
I add a carefully-measured amount of 1.1 litre from above via a tube when the car is flat or slight tilted up at the left side to avoid (a) spilling any oil and (b) getting it wrong because I relied on the fill opening when the car is at a slight angle. I and other owners have covered the various oil change procedures over the years in many threads elsewhere.
There are 433 posts here, some of which cover procedures:
On Inside EVs this kicked off over 3 years years ago. There are around 400 posts from this point onwards.
An oil change video here.
Refer back to post #8, the first section. Photos and videos prove that the factory magnet doesn't retain wear particles as it should.
2024 Genesis GV60 sport AWD (was Kia E-Niro 64kWh '4' since 9/2020)
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Thanks again for the detailed reply. In that video there looked to be a useful amount of pickup on the mag filler cap too, so I’ve ordered another magnetic plug so I can fit both. The more the merrier I suppose.
Interestingly, I see on our UK well known general motoring supermarket chain site HALFORDS that the thinnest gear oil they have is a 75 grade. Maybe our cars would have been better with a thicker oil in the first place? (Except for the extreme coldest climates anyway). I’ll probably get a couple of bottles of the 75w 80 to try.
www.halfords.com
You mentioned possible soft whining noise if oil was to become too thick. Did you see the YT video from Finland Tony when he drove his standard 2019 Eniro at -40°C! There was a very significant whining sound heard on the video! He just carried on regardless. I believe the sound disappeared when temperatures warmed up.
I can understand the iron particles contamination from the gears initial break-in found in the oil lab tests but I can’t understand the high aluminium which seems to persist even after the first oil change. Why should there be any aluminium wear metals present? Surely the little loosely mounted internal magnet rattling around could not alone account for that? Could it be a loose bearing journal spinning in the housing or a moving component rubbing against the housing somewhere?
Another snippet I read is report of the internal magnet actually becoming weak and found to have almost no magnetism strength left upon disassembly. That seems very odd if true.
Another question….. it seems in most noise cases they end up having to replace the motor as well as the gearbox unit. As I understand it, the oil is not affecting the motor so why would it also need replacement? Are there two issues at play here? Or is one of the motor bearings exposed to the gearbox oil? In the early days, they were apparently trying to fix noise by just replacing a motor mounting bracket. Doesn’t this suggest a known motor shaft misalignment issue? Hmmmn. Peter
Interestingly, I see on our UK well known general motoring supermarket chain site HALFORDS that the thinnest gear oil they have is a 75 grade. Maybe our cars would have been better with a thicker oil in the first place? (Except for the extreme coldest climates anyway). I’ll probably get a couple of bottles of the 75w 80 to try.
Gearbox Oil & Transmission Fluid | Halfords UK
Grab gearbox oil and transform your transmission. We’ve got gearbox oils for all makes and models. Shop online or instore. Free UK delivery.
www.halfords.com
You mentioned possible soft whining noise if oil was to become too thick. Did you see the YT video from Finland Tony when he drove his standard 2019 Eniro at -40°C! There was a very significant whining sound heard on the video! He just carried on regardless. I believe the sound disappeared when temperatures warmed up.
I can understand the iron particles contamination from the gears initial break-in found in the oil lab tests but I can’t understand the high aluminium which seems to persist even after the first oil change. Why should there be any aluminium wear metals present? Surely the little loosely mounted internal magnet rattling around could not alone account for that? Could it be a loose bearing journal spinning in the housing or a moving component rubbing against the housing somewhere?
Another snippet I read is report of the internal magnet actually becoming weak and found to have almost no magnetism strength left upon disassembly. That seems very odd if true.
Another question….. it seems in most noise cases they end up having to replace the motor as well as the gearbox unit. As I understand it, the oil is not affecting the motor so why would it also need replacement? Are there two issues at play here? Or is one of the motor bearings exposed to the gearbox oil? In the early days, they were apparently trying to fix noise by just replacing a motor mounting bracket. Doesn’t this suggest a known motor shaft misalignment issue? Hmmmn. Peter
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Just out of interest, is there Extended Warranty available for the car? The availability and cost if EW is often a good measure of the longer-term reliability of any model. Along with exclusions.
I have EW on my ICE BMW and have successfully claimed on it as well. The differential went at 25K miles and after about £2K of diagnostic work I got a replacement that would usually cost £2500 . The excess was £500 so at £240/year it’s been worth it. The only major exclusion is for water hoses, which says a lot to me about the most likely common component to fail.
BMW also don’t do EW beyond 100K miles, which again tells me that this is the point where the car is likely to start getting really major issues. Apparently, though, the premium starts to climb after 60K. I think this reflects the BMW falsehood about ‘lifetime fluids’ re the auto gearbox oil and diff’ oils - the original manufacturers (ZF and Drexler, respectively) both say oils need to be changed @50K~60K but BMW says, no, they’re lifetime. BMW also says the engine oil only needs replacing every 20K but accepted practice for this motor is 10K. All examples to me of how manufacturers ‘displace’ preventive maintenance out of the initial 3-4 years to make running costs and leasing cheaper, at the expense of longer-term reliability.
I have EW on my ICE BMW and have successfully claimed on it as well. The differential went at 25K miles and after about £2K of diagnostic work I got a replacement that would usually cost £2500 . The excess was £500 so at £240/year it’s been worth it. The only major exclusion is for water hoses, which says a lot to me about the most likely common component to fail.
BMW also don’t do EW beyond 100K miles, which again tells me that this is the point where the car is likely to start getting really major issues. Apparently, though, the premium starts to climb after 60K. I think this reflects the BMW falsehood about ‘lifetime fluids’ re the auto gearbox oil and diff’ oils - the original manufacturers (ZF and Drexler, respectively) both say oils need to be changed @50K~60K but BMW says, no, they’re lifetime. BMW also says the engine oil only needs replacing every 20K but accepted practice for this motor is 10K. All examples to me of how manufacturers ‘displace’ preventive maintenance out of the initial 3-4 years to make running costs and leasing cheaper, at the expense of longer-term reliability.
Another option available in the UK is:
Granville MTF FS 70W API: GL-4 (Part no 1407 UPC barcode 502061801407) 1 litre. £16.50 incl postage.
Somewhat OT, but for what it is worth my experience though 30 years of owning well used ICEs has been very few expensive mechanical issues.
- Ford Sierra 1983, owned 2 years, sold at 180,000 km: Rust.
- Peugeot 309, owned 2 years, sold at 210,000 km: oil seal at engine replaced
- Citroen ZX, stolen, crashed and written off. Good riddance.
- Honda Accord, owned 6 years and drove it from 220,000 to 340,000km: CV joints, switch box for electrical windows.
- Honda Accord, owned 16 years and drove it from 28,000 to 256,000km: rear brake replaced, ignition coil.
- Mazda B2500 pickup, got it in 2008 with 171,000, is now at 254,000. Had injection pump overhauled, crankshaft seal replaced, water pump replaced.
I may have been lucky, but none of the issues went into 4 digits.
The EU block exemption laws for car warranties (which are still grandfathered into UK legislation) covers you for non-manufacturer replacement parts so long as the parts used are of the correct specification, and were correctly fitted. They give the specification in the manual, so you are covered as long as you keep documentation of the parts used (keep invoices and ensure that your garage puts the part numbers of the oil used on their invoice). If you want to be extra careful, keep the original Kia plugs, and put them back in if you ever need to make a claim under warranty. You could even go the whole hog, and purchase original Kia oil from your dealer (either now, or before any warranty claim was carried out), but there should be no need to. The onus would be on Kia to prove that you used inferior oil AND that this was the cause of the problem with your car. Given the well documented history of this fault (thanks to @KiwiME and others), I don't think they would even try to defend this (let alone win a claim). In this case you wouldn't even be using alternate parts to carry out a required service item, you are carrying out extra preventative maintainance...
I think that once the extended 7 year Kia warranty period kicks in (i.e. after the legal 3 year warranty) then Kia can reject any claim at will. You could take them to court but my guess is it would be more difficult to win, given it's an extended warranty period where they can set the conditions they want.
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Halfords normally blocks access to their website from NZ but that page was visible. That oil looks fine, as does the Granville brand where I note that the 75W appears to be the same oil as the 75W80. I'll add those to my list.
The outer race spin is something I brought up long ago because this particular design is susceptible, having the motor and GRU separate independent units coupled by a spline. It's not ideal design practice but Nissan, BMW and others have made it work. Hyundai/Kia moved away from this architecture in the E-GMP and gen-2 Niro/Kona, as Tesla did starting with the Model 3. The Cyber Truck additionally adds locking pins to stop bearing outer race spin.
I've not seen anything to suggest that the factory magnet looses magnetism. It's actually seems quite strong for a ceramic type. But it's still proven to be ineffective for the only job it has ... ferrous particle sequestration.
The motor bearings are sealed and grease-lubricated. For some reason the tail-end bearing sometimes fails, along with showing evidence of outer race spin in the housing. No doubt that's why there are two or more revisions to the motor part number. I haven't been investigating this issue much, partly because it's not as common, it may have been addressed already, and I have no opportunity to gather evidence. It's also a problem with the Ioniq EV to the point where a local EV specialist here in NZ now offers a rebuild for $1500.
There's been no evidence of shaft misalignment and that was something I considered at the start of all this. No one has ever reported having to replace the motor or GRU due to excessive wear of the splined coupling. Precision alignment of parts in high-volume production is bread and butter work for automotive production engineers ... they won't get it wrong.
I don't have any proof as to exactly where the aluminium comes from but, yes, it can only be either (or both) magnet movement or bearing outer race spin. That has been shown in one case to happen at the GRU input shaft motor-side bearing. Evidence was presented in a video placed on FB earlier this year by a Kona owner who DIY'ed a GRU repair, but suddenly removed before I thought to save it. But, I consider the aluminium contamination more as an observation compared to the iron because it's unlikely to be harmful. We don't see aluminium particles in the used oil, it appears only as PPM in the lab analyses.
The outer race spin is something I brought up long ago because this particular design is susceptible, having the motor and GRU separate independent units coupled by a spline. It's not ideal design practice but Nissan, BMW and others have made it work. Hyundai/Kia moved away from this architecture in the E-GMP and gen-2 Niro/Kona, as Tesla did starting with the Model 3. The Cyber Truck additionally adds locking pins to stop bearing outer race spin.
I've not seen anything to suggest that the factory magnet looses magnetism. It's actually seems quite strong for a ceramic type. But it's still proven to be ineffective for the only job it has ... ferrous particle sequestration.
One report indicated that both parts are replaced as an assembly because in some regions or locales techs aren't trained for individual replacement. But aside from that situation there are two separate issues at play, totally unrelated in my opinion.
The motor bearings are sealed and grease-lubricated. For some reason the tail-end bearing sometimes fails, along with showing evidence of outer race spin in the housing. No doubt that's why there are two or more revisions to the motor part number. I haven't been investigating this issue much, partly because it's not as common, it may have been addressed already, and I have no opportunity to gather evidence. It's also a problem with the Ioniq EV to the point where a local EV specialist here in NZ now offers a rebuild for $1500.
There's been no evidence of shaft misalignment and that was something I considered at the start of all this. No one has ever reported having to replace the motor or GRU due to excessive wear of the splined coupling. Precision alignment of parts in high-volume production is bread and butter work for automotive production engineers ... they won't get it wrong.
2024 Genesis GV60 sport AWD (was Kia E-Niro 64kWh '4' since 9/2020)
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Thanks again for the replies. This thread is very useful to me. I’m still a bit worried about possible warranty voiding. I’ve ordered an extra magnetic plug so can change both (if I finally decide to do it).
I've also discovered some very reasonably priced oil. At that price I could maybe do a few changes at relatively short intervals, so as to try flush out residual particles/sludge and see if can get to a “staying clean” oil status. Sorry about the long link (dunno why this sometimes happens)…….
@KiwiME I see there are thicker still oils commonly available (75W90, 80W90 etc). Is there any merit in looking at those, or maybe that is going too far? I would value transmission longevity and quietness over ultra efficiency any day.
I think the original oil is this stuff, straight 70W. Are we sure it is synthetic type? If it isn’t synthetic, would it not be better to stick with a mineral oil? I wonder why they didn’t choose multi grade higher viscosity oil more like what majority of gear boxes seem to use? Maybe it’s to try eke out every last bit of energy efficiency? The drab bottle label really doesn’t say much…..
Cheers. Peter
I've also discovered some very reasonably priced oil. At that price I could maybe do a few changes at relatively short intervals, so as to try flush out residual particles/sludge and see if can get to a “staying clean” oil status. Sorry about the long link (dunno why this sometimes happens)…….
@KiwiME I see there are thicker still oils commonly available (75W90, 80W90 etc). Is there any merit in looking at those, or maybe that is going too far? I would value transmission longevity and quietness over ultra efficiency any day.
I think the original oil is this stuff, straight 70W. Are we sure it is synthetic type? If it isn’t synthetic, would it not be better to stick with a mineral oil? I wonder why they didn’t choose multi grade higher viscosity oil more like what majority of gear boxes seem to use? Maybe it’s to try eke out every last bit of energy efficiency? The drab bottle label really doesn’t say much…..
Cheers. Peter
2024 Genesis GV60 sport AWD (was Kia E-Niro 64kWh '4' since 9/2020)
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Food for thought Tim, Thanks. Everything you said makes sense. However, I would not want to get into disputes (even if I’m sure to win!) should i ever need a warranty claim.
On our side would be the fact that these cars clearly have a stock fault and had they got it all right in the first place, none of this extra maintenance and worry would have been necessary.
My son and myself both had Toyota Prius cars long term. As a precaution, We replaced the reduction gear/transaxle oil in both at maybe 60k+ miles with genuine Toyota stuff. It came out still red and only very slightly darker red than the new stuff. No particles visible, no magnetic plug AFAIR. So it can be done with careful quality design and manufacturing.
My son still has his Prius. It’s now 18y old and at 180k miles. Still going well too! He does lots of miles still. Kia is not Toyota clearly. Peter.
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