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So, does this have the new solid state batteries Toyota have promised for the last 5 years?
Not really...the "road map is showing 2027 and beyond....perhaps 😂

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Ah, so they've made some breakthrough in normal lithium to help them review their position that BEV's are not worth producing? Tell me they're not just hypocrites and being supported by sycophants?
No...they are just "ordinary" people like our beloved @Splendid Systems 😂
 
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Discussion starter · #26 · (Edited)
More insights that could explain what Toyota is up against at this stage of the global EV market (esp in China) cc: @BornAgainEcoWarrior @Padrino @Splendid Systems

Personally, I would love Toyota/Lexus to succeed globally in EVs (as I've had some wonderful ICE Toyota/Lexus cars in the past), but the harsh reality is that they face massive challenges (both internally as company), and externally. Only time will tell.

"But this excellent Bloomberg Businessweek story goes much deeper into detail about how Toyota is trying to catch up to new construction methods in the EV era—and whether it even can. In fact, it's probably the best story I've read on this subject yet. A subscription may be required, but it is worth a read in full.

Here's one excerpt, highlighting a seemingly anodyne part of any car: the 20-pound steel cross-bar at the front of the vehicle.

Today’s standard cross-car beam is the product of incremental improvements made across decades, and most versions of it have wound up under the hoods of internal combustion cars.

This is a testament to the Toyota Production System, which continuously refines even the tiniest details of individual auto parts.

Over untold iterations, the beam has been designed to keep the vibrations of an internal combustion engine from making their way to the passengers.

But electric motors don’t vibrate, and steel is heavy. These are among the reasons why Tesla Inc. and BYD Co., the top makers of battery-electric vehicles, manufacture similar beams out of plastic. Theirs weigh only about 14 pounds, according to Caresoft, and they’re cheaper and easier to install, too.


It’s a change that sounds so simple once you hear it, and intuitive, perhaps, if you’ve never dealt with a gas engine.

If you’ve spent a lifetime thinking in terms of micro-improvements—the core of kaizen, the philosophy that underpins the Toyota Production System, or TPS—it’s an insight that might well prove elusive. 'You cannot kaizen yourself from an ICE vehicle to a BEV'; says Caresoft President Terry Woychowski, a former General Motors Co. executive. ;That is the dilemma for Toyota.'

Now apply that lesson to the entire car. You see the problem here?

What Tesla pioneered, and what Chinese automakers have run with, is a clean-sheet, top-to-bottom reset of how a car is built from the ground up—not with decades of carmaking tradition behind it but starting with the idea of a profitable battery-powered vehicle and going from there.

That's essential because batteries are expensive and they will be for some time. So in order to actually make money on EVs, automakers have to streamline, cut costs and reinvent in other ways.

This is part of why so many new EVs in particular just have screens and very few buttons.
And so much is now made in-house, which runs counter to decades of outsourcing to countless third-party supplier companies.

As that story notes, a clean-sheet reinvention of everything isn't how Toyota's 'kaizen,' or continuous improvement of existing systems, is supposed to work. Nor is it how Toyota has trained generations of engineers, product planners and businesspeople around the world.

And that's a system copied by nearly every other automaker out there; it is why Toyota's being singled out here. It's the company that taught the world how to make modern cars, and now modern cars are increasingly built in a different way. (This is also why Ford is doing its 'skunkworks' EV project, although the status of that is anyone's guess lately.)

Toyota clearly isn't taking this lying down. Chairman Akio Toyoda balked at the idea that the Toyota Production System and 'kaizen' cannot figure out the future:

When a reporter asked whether the debacle meant Toyota’s production philosophy was butting up against its limits, Toyoda fixed him with a cold stare and replied, 'That’s completely wrong.' His team was hard at work, he said, using kaizen principles to resolve whatever problems might be at issue, just as it always had.

[...] 'Japan’s automobile industry has been able to become a global leader, but now it’s on the defensive,' says former Nissan CEO Hiroto Saikawa.

'It’s not very good at fundamentally rethinking things and learning from that. But no other country has such a deep bench of engineers of such quality. With an open mind to learning, they will still be able to do very well.'

Now, I took issue with some of that story, including an unfair dredging up of Toyota's recall crisis in the 2010s or saying Toyoda has an ;aversion to a fundamental rethink of the family business'; the dude was just out there at CES showing off a city of the future and investing in space travel.

Everything I've seen indicates Toyota is serious about the future of mobility. It even reports that Toyota engineers are already using 'some very un-kaizen workarounds' to make the bZ4X better.

But the point is this: it's no longer about just competing with Tesla.

It's now about the Chinese auto industry that's far bigger than any on earth and has a dozen Teslas waiting in the wings to steal Toyota's market share globally.

And the machine that changed the world can't figure that out, everyone else is cooked too."

I think that you can relax a bit.
If you know so much better, you can quit being an armchair chief engineer and start building your own 10 million cars a year and stick it to them.

As for China, yes they are doing great in the domestic market but outside of that.
Norwegians have plenty of Chinese options, why aren't they topping the sales lists?

I've recently rented a MG ZS.
Very nice car to rent for a couple days, but I would have to think twice before actually buying one.
Some of the interior plastics' wrapping was coming off already on a brand new car.
So it looks all good on the surface, but how will they last over 10 years...?

I think that Toyota is ready to sell an EV to anyone willing to buy one, the global market isn't there yet but in markets where they are there, they are showing that they can lead in sales.
So expect Toyota to be topping the EV sales charts in markets where EV's are going mainstream, and in other markets, they will top the ICE sales charts, as they always have.

It will be interesting to see what will happen once Toyota start selling there Aygo and Yaris EV's.
 
The motoring press is clueless and misleading. They are concerned more about scratchy plastic than whether the car actually works. Remember their writings and comments back in 2019 when the MG ZS first appeared.. no residual value and cheap and nasty inside? Well that was a load of b0ll0cks, so the buyers thought. Their comments are likely to be just as meaningless in the case of the Toyota. Time they did something useful and got a proper job.
They're really not. The interior quality of the car does matter to a lot of people. The MG ZS is cheap and nasty inside, but if that doesn't bother some buyers then it will sell well.

The comments on the bZ4X are not nonsense: just looking at the figures when it launched, it is an aggressively mediocre EV that is only worth it if you really want a Toyota. If you can get one at a big discount or a favourable finance deal then the compromises may be worth it (the terrible styling, the atrocious efficiency, the hilariously average range for the battery size, the mediocre interior and odd binnacle design).

You may not agree with their opinions, but it doesn't make their job not "proper". They offer a solid place to start your research from if you're looking to spend a large sum of money on a car so you can work out which ones to test and which ones to rule out.

For example, from me: two window switches only and a volume "rubby slider" that doesn't have illumination so you can't see it at night? Deal breaker. No indicator stalk? Deal breaker. Cheap interior? Something to investigate on a test drive.
 
Don't forget Toyota have got the Suzuki Vitara Urban Cruiser this year too (who thinks up these names)
The GAC produce BZ3X and BZ3C. Obviously China only. Remember Mazda have gone with a Chinese brand model with the eZ6.
I think we will see this more in the future. Chinese designed powertrain with body skin and interior designed by legacy auto and built in China.
Obviously Mazda's was more just styling as it isn't expected to be a massive seller. Toyota has put more effort into the interior moving away from sleek interiors, lights and gimmicks (favoured by new Chinese buyers) and back to basics and buttons for it's core Toyota customers.

Obviously we aren't getting these models but I think it's them dipping their toe in the water exercise. A move away from being a car manufacturer to a brand. Works well for Apple.
 
I leased my car, cost wasn't a consideration, space, comfort, looks, performance and range were. I test drove just about everything I could get access to (the E3008 & Scenic were available on lease, but not yet released to dealers, so they were out). Teslas were out, no Muskyness for me.

I test drove the following - not in this order, the order below is my preference from top to bottom:

Hyundai Ioniq 5
Skoda Enyaq
Ford Mustang Mach E
Kia EV6
Audi Q4 E-tron
Hyundai Kona
Kia Niro EV
VW ID.4
Toyota BZ4X
BYD Atto 3
Nissan Ariya

I ended up in an Ioniq 5, it was simply the best choice for me. I took my wife to test out the top 3 (she would not do all of them!) and she arrived at the same conclusion.

The cheapest to lease were the BZ4X and the ID.4. I pay £2000 more over 3 years to sit in an Ioniq 5 over the BZ4X. The rank you see is the order in which I would choose them based on my tests. As I said earlier, I rank it Mediocre at best, that's my ranking, not some magazine hack's.
 
I had a Mustang Mach E as a hire car for a couple of weeks, couldn't wait to get back into my E-Niro, only plus point was it was bright yellow and easy to find in the car park.
 
I preferred the EV6 to the Mach-e, but sadly it was a bit too small in the boot for the dog, long but shallow. Ariya was worst because even with the seat all the way down my head kept hitting the roof. BZ4X wasn't much better, but at least I could turn my head without hitting the sunblind.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
I leased my car, cost wasn't a consideration, space, comfort, looks, performance and range were. I test drove just about everything I could get access to (the E3008 & Scenic were available on lease, but not yet released to dealers, so they were out). Teslas were out, no Muskyness for me.

I test drove the following - not in this order, the order below is my preference from top to bottom:

Hyundai Ioniq 5
Skoda Enyaq
Ford Mustang Mach E
Kia EV6
Audi Q4 E-tron
Hyundai Kona
Kia Niro EV
VW ID.4
Toyota BZ4X
BYD Atto 3
Nissan Ariya

I ended up in an Ioniq 5, it was simply the best choice for me. I took my wife to test out the top 3 (she would not do all of them!) and she arrived at the same conclusion.

The cheapest to lease were the BZ4X and the ID.4. I pay £2000 more over 3 years to sit in an Ioniq 5 over the BZ4X. The rank you see is the order in which I would choose them based on my tests. As I said earlier, I rank it Mediocre at best, that's my ranking, not some magazine hack's.
Wait until that ICCU failure hits, you will look forward to a Toyota BZ4X...
 
How many abzyx have sold to be so confident in the knowledge they'll actually be reliable? It's not like they've got a lot of history to go on.
Nor would it be true to say they have been free of teething problems. I remember the wheels being bolted on wrong at the start such that there was a recall to prevent them falling off.
But fair to say teething issues seem to affect many manufacturers in this market.
 
I never said the Ioniq 5 was perfect, nor without issues. It’s just way better than the bz4x. The risk of iccu issues is about 5% based on the huge polls done in the USA. It’s a full maintenance lease with a guaranteed replacement if broken, so I’m not worried about it.

I’ll leave it to the final words from Top Gears long term test….it pretty much sums up the bz4x…

“It feels like Toyota didn’t try hard enough to impress, and ticked boxes without doubling down on any aspect at all. Add to that the lifeless range figures in the wild, and it’s a car that makes you want to sigh. It’s not even bad enough to hate, but you’d have to be a very beige thinker to fall in love.”
 
Discussion starter · #39 · (Edited)
Yet Norwegians are trampling over each other to get a BZ4X, and it's not like they can't get Ioniq 5's if they wanted to.
They must know something that you guys don't, since the BZ4X is outselling 2:1 all KIA and Hyundai models combined and there's many many. Explain that.
 
The BZ4X seems to be running away with a big chunk of the sales in the world's most mature EV market.

Close 3rd is Nissan with the Ariya, ahead of the Model Y.

In January and February of last year the Model Y topped the sales charts with similar numbers as the BZ4X is now selling at.
The BZ4X ended the year as Norway's 5th best selling model while the Ariya ended the year as the 8th most popular model.

It looks like Norway is showing a lot of love for Japanese brands.
Of note is that these cars have advanced offroad capable 4x4 systems, which could explain their surging popularity in the cold country.

Another explanation could be that in a maturing market, people are getting more picky with regards to certain charachteristics and reputations of the EV products.

Someone suggested that Toyota is offering low APR sales and discounts to taxi operators but without presenting evidence.

Interestingly, the BZ4X is also the best seller in Denmark.

Could we be on the dawn of a complete market upheaval?
What is going on? Whatever happened to Tesla selling 20 million vehicles by 2030 and Toyota vanishing into oblivion?

I can think of 3 reasons..
1. it's not a Tesla
2. Japanese engineering is still highly regarded in some parts of the world
3. it's not a Tesla!
 
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