Regrettably this is a consequence of the technology.

EVangelical BEV enthisasts are seeking to down-talk this issue with BEVs, but it doesn't wash with those that 'know' and have experienced this.

While it 'may' be true that the sum total of repair bills for a fleet of BEVs may be similar to a fleet of equivalent ICE, unfortunately the BEV repair bills come in big and scrap-worthy.

My Fluence blew a motor at 15k miles, or so, was in the shop for so long I forced the lease to terminate.

My Allied Electric van failed and was sold for scrap.

My beloved and best ever car, Ampera, could not be serviced, the one tech in 100 mile radius 'went missing' and no-one knew what happened to him. I kid you not. Calling VX yielded no good outcome 'sorry, there is nowhere to service your car at the moment'. An extremely regrettable sale that, in fact, has cost me £££££ since.

You might wonder what crazy sort of BEV enthisiast I am to then go on to get a further two of the things.

But now I have gone back to a Euro 6 diesel car because on top of all that the infrastructure cannot support my needs, I am usually castigated as a diesel-loving anti-BEV person.

Sorry, but BEVs cannot be depended on for low-cost motoring, you need to have an ICE for that purpose. This alone would be enough reason that 'most' people cannot yet convert to BEV, but the additional fact that most of those same people live in flats and terrraced houses (most likely rented) and cannot fit chargers is very much the nail in the BEV coffin for those people right now.

My firm advice is never to run an EV (BEV or hybrid) without warranty cover.

 

Let me first state first and foremost that it's awful what happened to you.

Second, it's important that it is extremely hard to make general judgements on one car, with one case, one dealer, one (obviously major) issue.

With that out of the way, a bit of background. I have bought my now 9 years old Q210 new, and have since that time followed this and the Dutch forum very closely, and have met the informal "Dutch ZOE driver" club a few times. I think I can also state I know a few ins and outs of the car, simply because I am a tech guy and like to delve into new technology, which it most certainly was in 2013.

I have not had this experience with this car or Renault. The most serious problem was a bearing issue which was a production failure. Motor replaced under warranty after I think 2-3 years. Dealership has been most professional, especially on the mechanical side of things. Kept me in the loop, went out of their way to make life easier for me when there was an issue (never comparable with the motor thing). Most issues have been non-EV related and not more than on any car I have owned. Think drop links, misalignment (now how could that have happened) Long story short: happy customer.

Two times I have had to deal with Dutch "HQ". Once for myself, and one time with a mate who had a weird problem the dealership could not fix. The former they kept on the case until it was solved. The latter they went out of their way (literally, had their mechanics trainer come to him with their diag tool) to get to the bottom of things. Now truth to be told, both were not issues popping up after 6 years, but I have to say I was impressed by their will to keep things moving, both the car and the process.

Having said all that, forums are of course magnets for horror stories, and that totally makes sense. However, far more than in my country I have read here about totally unprofessional behavior of dealers up to the point that it makes me think it is a "country thing". Maybe UK HQ is not on the dealership's case enough? Or too reluctant to "call Paris" if they can't help? A "parts cannon" case on your money as you describe is a shame. Sure, here surely there are top notch and "soso" dealers too and I have actually gone out of my way to buy at a "good" one; the local one here was already crap in the sales process, so that was a short relationship.

As for EV repairability in general: repairs are "module replacements" and they are friggin expensive. That is not a ZOE thing. Ask a few Tesla owners. One could have an opinion about the principle for sure, but I don't think that is your issue at the moment. It's a lack of proper diagnostics.

So what's the conclusion, well, mine at least: there is nothing inherently wrong with the ZOE really. They are not crushed left and right, on the contrary. You have been left in the dark by what seems HQ and your dealership. I can only recommend to have ie DSG Macombre (if I typed that right) have a look at it. They are top notch so I have read here over and over again. Others will chime in with alternatives. I honestly think you have to ditch your dealership as that might end up being penny wise pound foolish.

 

DSG Morecombe are a good Renault garage.

I'd also contact Cleevely EV in Cheltenham and ask them about motor failures. They maybe able to source and replace the motor at smaller cost (assuming that is even what is wrong anyway) as sometimes HEVRA garages have discovered the actual main part was fine but something silly like a fuse had gone or there was just some poor wiring that was the real fault.

As usual with the Zoe some of these failures are basically due to a wonky 12v battery. So that's always the first step. Change that for a brand new one.

As cars age there will be more failures and I think for the next couple of years there will be a few red faces in Nissan and Renault and a thriving repair ecosystem to fix these cars at a sensible cost. Many main dealers are incapable of the level of skill required to diagnose faults properly so consumers are being ripped off with expensive parts replacement when it's highly likely it's a small bit of the entire part that is faulty and could be repaired or replaced if there were the skills available.

 

My friend had issues with motor popping error which would go away after power cycling the car - he was able to find used motor with only 20k km for around 1k EUR, got it replaced for few hundred EUR and everything is fine now. (we are in Croatia)

 

I had motor failure on a ZE40 (there's posts on it here somewhere), when I was searching this forum around the time it was really common on an R90.. but few people other than R90 owners had that issue and once the R90 motor was replaced it seemed to never happen to any R90 owners ever again.. so I suspect there has been some dodgy batches / designs over the years. The R90 only saw a short run before the R110. Never seemed to hit the Q90 either.

Same with the ZE50, I had one of the first 100 in the UK - I had a complete dash failure within about 2 weeks. The garage noted that the dash part number going back into the car was a completely different part number to what was coming out.. Renault in their wisdom had decided very quickly the original dash part wasn't very good and weren't fitting that one anymore in new or existing Zoes.

Car manufacturers these days are just systems integrators like computer manufacturers.. you buy a computer and it has an Intel CPU, RealTek sound card and maybe a hard-disk made by Western Digital.. They'll switch any component or manufacturer that is causing them a warranty headache. Dodgy parts within warranty cost Renault a lot of money instead of getting it right in the first place.

My feeling on EVs is you get some dodgy part models throughout the lifecycle of a car (and these will show up often early and consistently - hi to my fellow R90 owners).. but once you've run the car for a while you are unlikely to get any sudden surprises.

The main complaint about the Zoes are that over time things loosen and you start to get weird rattles - or people sell the cars without having the original fixes applied like the LBC software update to enable Energy Consumption viewing.. or the welding fix to stop creaks over speedbumps.

Most of the new threads here will be "has anyone had this error before?" etc or when plugging into their 1960s wiring and giving the car extremely low charge current or voltage and having dodgy earths but most of the replies and comments will be us moaning about the app being down or the map updates not being timely... that's the majority of the frustration with Renault Zoe ownership. Few are popping on routinely to say "Hi all, just wanted to let you know my car is fine and I have no problems at the moment".. would make for a rather dull collection of posts.

I'd still pay for the enhanced warranty just to smooth out any unexpected problems down the road, but I wouldn't expect any... I've had worse reliability out of my gas boiler than these cars!

My biggest concern with Zoes would be trim wear and tear.. My ZE40 was well looked after and made it to 4 years easily, but I could see how after probably 8 years or 10 years it could have looked more worn. My ZE50 I'd say is wearing faster and is using more cost effective components - I couldn't see the carpet making it 8 years. ZE40 was built like a tank, the ZE50 trim cut some corners - has no bearing on the rest of the car's components however or its reliability - just aesthetics.

Cars being recalled for dodgy components isn't that uncommon, I have had a friend (and also heard on the Netflix documentary) that average around 3 repair shop visits for a new VW petrol. My friend even had to reject one car and has now had an urgent safety recall with the next.

Renault have had a history of having horrific electric problems with their petrol cars and a lot of people I talk to say they wouldn't touch a Renault. However since one of the joint forerunners in electrification in 2012 - they genuinely know what they're doing and there's so few parts to go wrong in the EV that I don't think there are many more established or doing better. The VW ID.3 alongside its very questionable white trim (that they've since abandoned as apparantly it got dirty easily?!) had a recall for not being able to charge properly amongst other things pretty much as soon as it was launched (the SpeakEV ID.3 forums were full of miserable owners last time I checked), the MG EV had a "virtual fuse" that would render the car a breakdown I think for at least several software update iterations.. the Zoe is a mature design. Unfortunately it's now End-of-Life and Renault are moving onto the next design - carrying over their decade of EV experience.

Tesla I was surprised to learn nearly got some car recommendations pulled as despite their militant followers they had horrific reliability - I asked a few people I knew whose parents had Teslas in disbelief and they said their cars are regularly breaking.

 

Thank you all for your replies. It is interesting that even those of you talking about having few problems have had significant work done under warranty (sadly not available for me) including motor replacement. In my many years of ICE cars I never once needed the whole engine replacing!

Indeed my issue is probably about finding a garage who know what they are doing, however, I do think the inability of garages to be able to effect cheap and swift repairs will start to cause big bill's and big problems for EV's.

The green credentials of these cars will be severely damaged if they don't become as fixable as your average car, to enable them to pass the point where they have accounted for the embodied carbon of production in the 1st place.

I am collecting my car from the garage tomorrow. Hopefully a second opinion will reveal a simpler fix if not scrap it is.

 

I don't know many people who buy/lease a new car and haven't had at least one trip back to the garage within its first year.

It's the same with spinning rotational hard-disks.. they either typically fail within 30 days or after 8 years..

After my dash screen replacement my ZE50 has not required another garage visit other than servicing. My VW Polo friend has had at least 3 visits with about 3 different VW Polos (having rejected 1 of them after 3 repairs didn't solve the problem). She points at the time I had motor failure, once, 4 years ago as a sign that electrification isn't the future.. in a sea of forum posts about R90 motor failure being a very specific thing.. and I ask how the VW Polos have been working out for her so far .

If you need a dealer who knows what they're doing I'd recommend SJ Cook & Sons in Bristol. They're the only dealer I take mine to now. Their prices are somewhere in the middle (Cardiff was slightly cheaper for servicing but Bristol are more thorough and proactive like for instance offering to correct the boot weld issue on its first service). Despite being owned by the same company I find City Motors Bristol snobby and profiteering.

I kept saying "engine replacement" too but the tech corrected me, the engine is a lot of components (including stuff that sits on top of the motor), it's the R90 motor on the ZE40 which was problematic.. the motor is quite a small component and a small environmental cost, labour was probably the biggest component to the repair. EVs are more environmentally friendly no question about it, I hadn't even begun to consider how ridiculous non-EV pollution is until I saw this:

EVs are simpler, it's just a fancy go kart with airbags - when things go wrong they can be expensive or core compoments.. but there's a lot of other things that don't go wrong - oil leaks, ignition, fuel sensor.. etc etc. You'll hear people talking about motor or battery problems more because there's very little else that can go wrong - but these problems are exceptionally rare after the first year of ownership... pretty rare after even 30 days of ownership I'd say. I remember watching a video of EVNick's Zoe getting flooded when a river bank burst.. he dried the car out and had it checked over by the best Renault experts he knew but the car was still pretty good to go and completing its safety checks. Fancy go-karts .

 

If you can’t find a solution for it, I’d be interested to buy it from you as is instead of scrapping it

 

I blew my Diesel up when the Cam belt slipped, bought an electric car after that as my local mechanic friend Tony Harrison recommended me to do as he couldn't repair the Diesel economically and couldn't source a replacement engine.

I think that speaks volumes for itself that Tony who owns his own mechanic business would recommend an electric car costing him a loyal customer....

 

I blew my Diesel up when the Cam belt slipped, bought an electric car after that as my local mechanic friend Tony Harrison recommended me to do as he couldn't repair the Diesel economically and couldn't source a replacement engine.

I think that speaks volumes for itself that Tony who owns his own mechanic business would recommend an electric car costing him a loyal customer....

Was the timing belt inspected at the previous service, like it is supposed to be?

Belts don't just break. There are usually signs that a belt will not last its 4 years well before it breaks.

 

We have received further details from our garage which as far as I can tell suggest the 1. the error is no longer present and 2. after reviewing the rotor position sensor they have seen excess wear which will require a new motor. In a low mile car such as this (35k in 6 years) I am surprised to see excess wear. and I am not sure I know what has worn excessively. Any one able to shed some light?

 

The position sensor is a VERY crucial component in a synchronous motor like the ZOE has, so it failing most certainly should stop the car. It will self destruct if that error is not detected. It is ridiculous though if it can't be replaced. It is in itself a small and simple component. But maybe that is not what you meant and another wear became only visible when inspecting said sensor. If so, I share your question: what can it be? An electric motor like this can

1. shred it's bearings. Shouldn't, but it can happen and it has happened
2. loose a component while rotating. Air gap tolerances are tight so it would lead to fairly catastrophic destruction. Obviously not what happened
3. overheat. This really should not happen as there are sensors all over the place. But if so, we're talking insulation failures which is the end
4. damage it's slip ring / carbon brushes for the two rotor contacts. Those should last 100K, unless there was a non smooth surface on the slip ring. Should most certainly not require a new motor.

TBH, the analysis doesn't make much sense to me.

 

I have had a lot of new cars over the years, the worst failure was a petrol Passat with a well known issue to do with the FSI fuel system. The best were the Mercedes’ with no actual failures at all. The EQC has been perfect over the last year. However on the Mercedes’ forums there are lots of complaints about failures in all the Mercedes’ models I have had, GLK, c class, e class and EQC. So some cars of any sort have issues others do not I do not think it is anything to do with electric v ICE.
Electric motors have been around for a very very long time and the technology for manufacturing them must be quite advanced by now so is no doubt becoming greener and greener. They in comparison to an engine are easier to make and there is far less to go wrong compared to an ICE. I am sure that the pattern parts people will enter the market as the size of the electric fleet increases and as with engine and gearboxes there will be a healthy alternative market that will enable older electric cars to be kept alive, not least the scrap industry as cars are written off after accident damage.

 

To the OP, I hope you get a fix for your Zoe.

This subject will often split opinion. In my experience, and it’s limited to the BMW i3, is the lack of technical knowledge in the industry.

Now this is just my opinion, but if you own a car with an internal combustion engine, and you’re in it for the long term, then hold onto it. The carbon footprint to produce a new electric car probably outweighs the green credentials.

Back to the predicament. Electric cars are sensor heavy, and there are numerous threads on BMW i3 forums with failed EME modules issues requiring thousands of pounds to fix.
There are businesses that offer repairs: BMW i3 i8 740/745e EME repairs

If you look at it from the franchise garage point of view, the modules are fixable, with the right knowledge and experience. However, their technicians are trained to diagnose and replace given their hourly rates. Even if they can’t find a definitive fault, then it wouldn’t be the first time they’ve swapped out an entire unit in pursuit of a repair, often costing a prohibitively amount of money.

 

Fundamental design problem is the restrictive electronic coding to VIN numbers preventing reuse of components easily, good to prevent theft, but makes many easily repairs impossible.

 

DRM in another name

 

My Dad snapped the Cam belt on an old Vauxhall Carleton 1800 petrol 20 years ago. The AA man turned up, had a look in the back of his van and found a replacement belt. Fitted it on the side of the road and sent my Dad on his way! 😄

 

I had a belt snap on a 2000cc Ford engine. The belt was probably the original 20 year old one, given its condition, and should have been replaced but that was when I was young and knew nothing. A few friends and I bodged on a new belt and it was right as rain.

That is the benefit of non-interference engines.

What's super annoying is when engines are designed as intererence engines when their cylinder geometry could have been non-interference. It also perplexes me why non-interference engines still have specified belt replacement periods, rather than simply inspection periods and replace when needed.

All 4 stroke diesels I am aware of are interference engines. Dofficult to make one that isn't.

 

So more info from me. The motor bushes are worn but Renault will not replace them as the motor is a sealed unit. They will only replace the whole motor.

No indication as why the bushes have worn so fast or how this is our problem rather than a manufacturing fault.

Advice from the garage go to trading standards!

 

So more info from me. The motor bushes are worn but Renault will not replace them as the motor is a sealed unit. They will only replace the whole motor.

No indication as why the bushes have worn so fast or how this is our problem rather than a manufacturing fault.

Advice from the garage go to trading standards!

Do you mean brushes? Or is it some form of bush that is part of the mounting/drive system? I would be surprised if it was not a brushless motor though on cost grounds they could go that route I suppose.
At the end of the day elements of a BEV are not any different to a washing machine and most of them require a full motor replacement if it fails. Sealed units for life also represent the labour costs, it can be much cheaper to fit a new unit than dismantle and repair an exisiting one. As I say 10yrs from now that costs will drop substantially as the pattern parts people gear up and the dead motors will themselves be refurbed just as ICE engines are today. Am sure as is happening with old Nissan Leaf batteries there will also be people who can replace failed battery packs etc etc BEV repair etc will just mimic ICE once the economies of scale and the age of the fleet makes it viable.

 

Don't know how it is in the UK, but at least here my understanding and experience has been that most brand shops have since long been like this. They won't risk repairing old parts as they have to give warranty for the repair. Since they don't do it, they may not even have the know how or only one or two qualified mechanics.

Usually they play bingo using their limited diagnose ability, changing part after part at the expense of the customer. So if you want ease of mind, better have some warranty left, or take the car somewhere else. Some smaller specialized shops may still do it, if you can find one...

 

According to this earlier SpeakEV thread, the R90 motor does have brushes:

R90 whining noise at low speed - supposedly motor brushes

I've had my R90 Zoe for almost 4 years, and I've been really happy with it, but about a year ago it started making a whining noise at low throttle openings. When I took it to my nearest dealer they tried to tell me it was the Zoe voice, and after I pointed out you could turn off the voice, and...

www.speakev.com

As the owner of a 2001 Citroen Berlingo Electrique fitted with a DC motor, I know about EVs with carbon brushes, but I thought that was all over with the change to AC motors. Not so for Renault, who use a wound rotor excited via brushes and slip rings, apparently to avoid reliance on rare-earth permanent magnets.
The brushes are replaceable, but fitting them is an engine-out job? I am surprised that brushes on slip rings ( as used in the alternator of an ICE car ) have only lasted 35k miles.

 

Yes sorry it reads brushes. So in short brushes too worn after 6 years and 34k miles. Seems like a reasonable life span for a car!

 

As I said yesterday, carbon brushes for the slip rings were a fair possibility. And I stick to my >100K miles point; your have failed too early. But glad that the analysis now makes more sense. The sealed unit story however sounds off. Have a peek at Mesmerizing video of the R motor production (and more) and slide the video to 08:20. They are sticking out of the now assembled core motor a very short moment at 13:06. However, that is on the side of the cable connections of the motor, meaning where it is bolted onto the PEC.

Conclusion from this amateur is: they are serviceable, but the motor/PEC assembly probably needs to be taken out to remove the large door of the PEC. I doubt a full motor replacement can be done without that procedure as the cables are bolted to the power electronics inside the PEC. Though I am not claiming they are wrong, why they want to toss the motor is a bit of a mystery to me.

 

I thought the motors were indestructible on EVs ?
It's true the parts costs are insane on EVs. The only viable option is if you can find a used spare at a reasonable price and someone to fit it

 

I thought the motors were indestructible on EVs ?

 

All nice and true, but AFAIK, most components in the ZOE are NOT vin-locked, at least not it the Ph1 types. Notable exception that IS vin-locked is the PEB. In my experience the ZOE is a remarkably "open" car platform. So while I agree with the general premise, it requires some nuances, especially here. Maybe it's "harder locked" in the Ioniq.

We could start a discussion if it's would be a good and/or feasible plan to have some legislation in place to force more openness as it already exists in the ICE world (comparable with EU "thou shall use USB-C for your phones and laptops" legislation), but it might go off the rails fast. I guess nobody would be surprised I would personally be in favor, but first I digress, and second, maybe this is not the best time to get into political waters!

 

Hevra in the UK are able to swap a failed PEB with a used one and sort out the VIN/immobiliser coding. They have an R&D department that basically spend all their time working out things like this so that EV repairs can be done at a more reasonable cost.