I suppose it leads to the obvious question, is this a safety issue with the E-Niro or an assumption by Zappi about how EVs should work. Does the E-Niro have problems with any other chargers? Do other chargers try to do what the Zappi tries to do? Interesting issue though.

 

Reading the link, it states that Tesla M3 and the Zoe work correctly and always have done, so it looks like a cock up by Kia.
They are also aware of other chargers that are having the same issue.

 

Would using a single phase zappi cable prevent this?

 

Yes, (but your e-Niro will only charge at 3.6kW - edited as I was wrong). The other issue is how your solar is wired (which is why a lot of people have chosen a Zappi) which may put the solar into a different phase meaning that you cannot benefit from it.

 

Yes, but your e-Niro will only charge at 3.6kW.

Not true and is precisely why there is a problem. See text below from Myenergi and a bonkers way to design it. Tesla connect two chargers to L1 on single phase and leave L2 disconnected.

"If the e-Niro is charging from a single phase supply it appears to use a relay to physically connect the supply phases L1 and L2 together – presumably because the car has two 3.6kW single phase chargers that need to be connected in parallel to charge at 7kW from one phase".

Kia e-Niro Safety Issue | myenergi UK

At myenergi, we have identified a Kia e-Niro Safety Issue regarding the 2020 model and wish to inform our customers of the important facts

myenergi.com

 

Presumably since the British 2020 e-Niro 4 does not have 3 phase charging, it will not be affected by the problem?

 

Do you know that for a fact?

 

The British 2020 Kona does, so I'd be surprised if the 2020 eNiro doesn't...

 

My e-Niro 4 does not have any connectors in the bottom two holes of the car's charging socket which I think means no ability for three phase charging. As far as I know in England Scotland and Wales three phase charging is only possible with the 4+ due later/next year.

 

Our MY20 has no contacts in the bottom two positions of the AC socket.

 

Hmmmm. This might potentially cause delays to the UK 4+ versions due November ish? They might hold it back to implement a fix? This sounds like an extremely major cock up to me.Hyundai/Kia will likely have to pay compensation to all the charging points that get blown up! They will surely need to hold back the 3Phase equipped production run and recall/rework any 3Phase cars sold.

Peter

 

As I have a 4+ on order, I really hope this is sorted before it arrives.

 

Surely whether or not the car is within spec, it is the zappi that is blowing the main incoming fuses?

 

No, it's the car's onboard charger shorting 2 phases together.

 

Does anyone know how long or what you have to do to make the car change back from the L1 and L2 being connected before it can be run on 3 phase again?

 

The Zappi isn't passing the problem up the line. It is blowing a part in the Zappi that needs replacing.
Myenergi have seen problems in some of the 3 phase cars and are trying to highlight the issue to hyundai /kia and suggesting the issue is highlighted to other users.

I haven't looked into it as my Niro is single phase and I have a single phase zappi so not going to cause an issue for me but it does sound like it's an issue with the car that has the potential to be dangerous.

With a zappi it won't be dangerous but it will mean a component needs replacing if switching from single phase to 3 phase charging without unplugging the car first.

 

Aside from not isolating the L2 receptacle pin when switching to single phase mode by shorting L1 and L2, the OBC and the zappi seem to have a different idea of what constitutes a "reset". It could be that the OBC expects a CP condition of zero volts or open that the zappi is not providing, or a PP state that not possible without physically pulling the T2 plug.

 

Per the reports above the cut out fuses of the property are blowing as well. Does the wallbox not have any responsibility for ensuring what is plugged into it doesn't introduce a fault into the system causing this to happen?
How difficult would it be for an evse to check for this fault condition / electrical safety before opening up its contactors?
(I am also glad at this point not to have a Hyundai 3ph charger in my car either)

 

Not difficult at all but it's a scenario that an EVSE should not have to test for.

 

Completely agree. The car should never, ever connect any of the phase pins on the charge connector socket together. Not acceptable under any circumstances.

To expect the wall charger to somehow check and cater for this ridiculous scenario would be overkill. It should not need to as this should never have happened inside the car. If I connected a dead short L to N inside a household plug, then plugged it in to a socket, I would expect a big flash and a bang as it takes out the fuses etc. This is no different in essence.

Peter

 

The Zappi has an update released this morning so the Zappi can't switch from single phase to 3 phase charging without being unplugged from the car first if it detects there could be a Kona or Niro connected. There's not an explanation on what checks are made. Myenergi have done something about it very quickly, but have said it could affect other 3 phase cars as well, but not intended to.

 

That’s good that Zappi have put in a quick fix workaround. I wonder if this Kia fault scenario could happen when 3 Phase Hyundai/Kia is used on any other charging stations other than Zappi. Maybe even some public charge points?

Peter

 

Would any public charging points ever try to switch from single phase to three phase? I think it's unlikely unless you had a system with some extremely complicated load-sharing scheme.

 

Trying to get some clarity on this... As I understand it, the issue is a now-known fault that can occur when you have, and only when you have, the following combination:

• A three-phase Zappi

AND

• A three-phase equipped Kia e-Niro OR a three-phase equipped Hyundai Kona

While it is suspected that it may also be a problem when you have:

• Any three-phase charger

AND

• A three-phase equipped Kia e-Niro OR a three-phase equipped Hyundai Kona

That this is potentially a very serious and very dangerous fault.

That if my understanding above is correct, it would be sensible not to use these three-phase equipped cars with three-phase chargers until further investigation is done and further advice is issued. Again, if my understanding is correct, that these models of cars when equipped only with single-phase charging capability only are not affected by this fault.

 

I suspect this is one of those things that's not well defined in the standard. A quick scan of IEC62763 and 61851 didn't show anything obvious.

Unless the standard specifically mentions it, it isn't totally unreasonable for the car to assume that it will be plugged into either a single- or three-phase charger, and once plugged in the number of phases won't change.

However it still shouldn't ever be connecting an input phase directly to another, and should either use a changeover relay to connect the second charger channel, or two SPST relays with hardware interlocks to prevent them operating together.

The Zoe had a very similar issue when connected to a charger which had a phase missing - it would assume it was single-phase and short 2 phases together.

I don't think Zappi is blameless here tough - if the standards don't explicitly state how to change from 1- to 3-phase charging, it probably shouldn't be doing it, or at the very least have a way to configure it not to.

 

I suspect this is one of those things that's not well defined in the standard. A quick scan of IEC62763 and 61851 didn't show anything obvious.

Unless the standard specifically mentions it, it isn't totally unreasonable for the car to assume that it will be plugged into either a single- or three-phase charger, and once plugged in the number of phases won't change.

I think Zappi have gone out on a limb here, unless the standard explicitly describes a charge point being able to switch between single phase and three phase on the fly without the car being unplugged in between, then they have made an assumption that this should work which is not based on published specifications.

Just because it works on a couple of models of car doesn't mean it is safe or that it should work on all. Why should a car assume that a charge point might switch between single phase and 3 phase while still plugged in ?

However it still shouldn't ever be connecting an input phase directly to another, and should either use a changeover relay to connect the second charger channel, or two SPST relays with hardware interlocks to prevent them operating together.

Agreed. If it is just closing a contactor between two of the live pins based on the assumption that nothing is connected to one of the pins at the other end, that is a very lazy design. It should definitely be a changeover contactor or equivalent that leaves the unused external phase pin isolated.

I don't think Zappi is blameless here tough - if the standards don't explicitly state how to change from 1- to 3-phase charging, it probably shouldn't be doing it, or at the very least have a way to configure it not to.

I think Zappi and Kia are equally to blame here.

Zappi for trying to do something that is "undefined" in the spec, and Kia for being lazy just closing a contactor between two externally connected phase pins without regard for what might be at the other end when it should be changeover switching.

The question is, will Kia address this with a contactor change, or will they just implement a software fix to try to detect the change between single phase and three phase ? (or will they do nothing and claim that Zappi's behaviour is out of spec ?)

My guess is if Kia do anything at all it will be a software workaround.

 

Why would you want to switch from 1 to 3 phase during a charging session?
Glad I got the first edition e-niro.

 

Why would you want to switch from 1 to 3 phase during a charging session?
Glad I got the first edition e-niro.

If I understand what's going on, the zappi knows about your solar panels. So if it's sunny it may tell the car to use single phase limited to a suitably low current, then when the sun goes in and you still need more charge it tells it to switch to 3-phase with resulting kaboom.

I guess the question has to be how much it is worth to either party to fix this properly? If Zappi's workaround which basically limits functionality charging a Kia or Hyundai is sufficient to make it safe then they may not feel they need to do more. Most people in the UK don't have 3-phase currently; more perhaps on the continent. If commercial chargers don't try to switch in this way there may not be any need for an expensive recall to replace all the chargers. On the other hand if there's an actual safety risk beyond just destruction of your charger maybe they will have to do something.

 

What is the benefit of making the L2 pin at the socket remain live to Hyundai? It seems at best an accident waiting to happen and could presumably have been solved simply by switching on a spdt rather than spst basis.

 

A spst relay is cheaper and uses less space ( and more component options to choose from) than a changeover one. There can also be issues using changeover contacts at high currents ( arcs effectively shorting both contacts). However two single-pole relays, with hardware interlocking to prevent them being on at the same time, would be a good solution - one relay connects charger stage 2 to L1 for single-phase, the other one to L2 for 3-phase.

 

An actual 3 phase charger would never isolate its unused phases when connected to a single phase car. All three phases would appear at the car, and the car would simply only use one of them.

The spec has no provision at all for signalling wether the charger is single or three phase. The car has to look at the incoming supply and make a decision based on what it can see.

Clearly, the likes of Tesla also short together the two phases to run their chargers in parallel when a single phase supply is detected, but presumably do it with a changeover relay, so the shorted line doesnt actually appear at the type 2 connector, and it all stays inside the charging unit.

 

This bodes well... FB post...
myenergi Benelux with a team from @HyundaiEurope and @kia_motors carrying out detailed testing of their new three phase onboard charger and the #myenergi #zappi

 

So just to check our UK MY20 e-Niro with single phase only can charge on a 3 phase Type 2 22kW outlet safely, but will of course only get 7kW? We are off to Spain and there are a fair number of 3 phase 22Kw chargers on Open Charge Map.

 

Yes, a single phase OBC will get 7kw from a 7,11 or 22kw outlet

 

Was the issue of this thread completely solved in the meantime or does it still exist?

 

As per the original post link....

https://myenergi.com/e-Niro/

myenergi shows this info on that page...
22/12/2020
Kia have now confirmed that new firmware is available for their EV’s with three phase on board chargers.
We understand that they will be contacting the owners of all EV’s concerned to arrange a firmware update from the service centre

 

Well, I have one of the first Hyundai Kona MY2020 with the 10.5kW OBC (same internals as the e-Niro) and as yet I haven't been advised of this update.

 

Suggest you contact dealer/Hyundai direct and find out why they haven’t contacted you to implement the update.