The Ford Fiesta was the best selling car in the UK in 2017.

That too means nothing in relation to converting ICE drivers to EV.

 

Will it be consuming batteries that could go into EVs? There seems to be a shortage of 64kWh packs...

I guess it's okay for what it is, and as long as it's not plug in I can't really object. Plug in hybrids are the most annoying.

 

The more that I consider the ePower drive system the more I like it. By all accounts, the eNote drives just like a Leaf and has all the same attributes and toys but £shedloads cheaper. Would I like my Leaf to have a range of 600 miles and be thousands cheaper? Errr.......

I would miss my home plug and cheap fuel of course but the actual savings in fuel costs with my 6000 annual miles is only £400pa. Other extra costs would be VED and various EV cheap parking concessions but if I was saving £100 pm on PCP due to a far lower purchase price then the break-even point is easy to reach.

Would I go that way?

Probably not in my circumstances because we are a two car family with an ICE and BEV. The Leaf covers 95% of all journeys. But if we go one car it becomes a real alternative to consider.

When the bald finances element becomes so evenly balanced and the driving experience becomes identical I can begin to see why the eNote has been a runaway success. The system will be easy to insert into any bodyshell. We could have our much-desired choice of people carrier /towing machine without breaking the bank.

The big danger is that it could become so versatile and flexible whilst offering a brilliant drive experience that it will be much harder to differentiate the benefit of a pure BEV from the pseudo electric drive. There may come a point where it is actually better than a BEV, and cheaper.

I hope not. But meanwhile it seems to be an excellent car and it's hardly surprising that it has found a large market in Japan.

 

For me it is all about what strategy companies like Nissan should adopt to meet the challenge of staying in business whilst the transition to us all driving as many of our miles electric as soon as possible happens.
At the moment those companies believe that they dictate the pace of change but not for much longer.
So what strategies could they consider?
1) Wait for Tesla to put them out of business.
2) Wait until various governments oblige them to only produce bevs and hope by then they are still in business.
3) Produce a bev equivalent to each car in their range to sit alongside each ice and gearbox model in their dealerships' showrooms.
4) As each model comes due a new generation of itself, stick an electric drivetrain in to turn the wheels, thus turning every vehicle they make into an ev.

Now given that at some stage every car that they produce will have an electric drivetrain (4) seams to me the best strategy, unless someone has a better plan to put forward.

 

In terms of sharing the world's resources just as there is something crazy about having a 200 bhp ICE and popping down the road to the supermarket in it. There is a madness in having a heavy 70+ kWh BEV to do the same.

I think the E-Power but only as a duel fuel vehicle is a very good thing and not evil at all because while it is not the ideal solution for emissions, it does mean a plug-in E-Power with a sensible sized battery and an ICE powering a generator would be buildable in greater numbers sooner, given the known battery cell production bottlenecks. Thus reducing emissions sooner and by more overall than a smaller number of pure BEVs.

It would even with a 20 kWh battery be cheaper than a 60 kWh BEV. The ICE and generator should be about half the cost of a 40 kWh of battery.

In use: range issues are gone, battery decay has almost no impact on practicality in terms of range achievable (the ICE kicks in a bit sooner instead), less noise in urban use on an all electric trip. Long range use is possible without rapid charging fade since rapid charging is not necessary. So the CCS v Chademo choice is avoided. Plenty of heat available on long winter trips from engine and instant start-up heat and pre-heating available from battery. No gears, no clutch, sensible regen, so less brake dust.

Two car BEV and ICE families can consider one E-Power that can cover all the bases unless two cars at the same time are required in which case you would have two E-Powers and always be travelling electric for short trips.

Bonus too instead of spending a pile of cash on a few rapid charges, install lots of three phase 22 kW fast chargers so more folk can top up at an MSA at the same moment for a few more miles without the ICE turning on. No hanging about for a charge to complete just go when you want to after a stop over for a break. E-Power vehicle suitable for business use to make a meeting appointment with a predictable journey time.

UK would still have reasonable mobility if fossil fuel was rationed due to war blocking supplies.

Bottom line:

Right now: Lots of vehicles doing mainly electric miles is better for the planet than a few doing all their miles electric.

Until BEVs have solid state batteries, the E-Power (series hybrid) has a key role in electrification of transport. Current BEVs point the way but are not of themselves going to fully replace the ICE functionality. They are only an alternative that has some major limitations around capital cost and utility.

 

I think the E-Power but only as a duel fuel vehicle

It is not dual fuel - ePower uses one fuel which is PETROL. Just like a Prius.

 

@proddick what strategy do you feel Nissan should adopt to make the transition to having all their vehicles electric by 2030?
I say 2030 because I believe it possible for them to make their range all ev by then and maintain/increase their market share. Furthermore I think it essential that they do so.

 

I agree that REX would be a good strategy for transition, but that isn't the way manufacturers are going. They are planning (in battery size order) mild hybrid, hybrid, short range PHEV and BEV.

I think the problem is that long range PHEV or REX (eg BMW i3) is just too expensive to produce.

 

REX is a terrible idea. The fossil engine doesn't get used often enough and breaks down.

 

There are plenty of designs made specifically for REX operation. It isn't an issue except cost.

Edit - Micro turbines can also be used
Delta's micro-turbine range extender will make production in a 2019 model | Autocar

 

See the i3 REx

 

So one manufacturer used a bad design. Lots of USA Volt owners use their ICE rarely, with many only running due to maintenance mode. Not a problem.

 

The problem with e-Power is, that it's a really interesting design that would have been great as a transition mechanism a decade ago, but it is fundamentally flawed by not doing anything to prevent pollution at the point of use.

I would rather that the time and development went into addressing the reasons why people think they need this, a rex or any hybrid, unless supplementary means of generation was emissions free.

If the rexes are only being run to keep them maintained, then surely that indicates that they are not actually needed.

 

The problem with e-Power is, that it's a really interesting design that would have been great as a transition mechanism a decade ago, but it is fundamentally flawed by not doing anything to prevent pollution at the point of use.

Without going down the rabbit hole about CO2 not actually being a pollutant you are right of course. Except that you are only partly right. Running an eNote that can achieve 80mpg rather than a similar sized normal ICE that can manage 50mpg does reduce whatever negative effects that can be determined over fossil fuel use. That is a 1/3rd reduction at a stroke. If all cars in a town used ePower that would be a huge reduction in tailpipe emissions. Hardly a fully satisfactory result from an EV advocate point of view but still to be welcomed. Imagine if all ICE cars became EVs propelled by ICE generators. An initial massive reduction in emissions as well as millions of drivers experiencing much higher mpg, lower running costs, and the smooth EV experience. From there it would be a short step to full BEV as many of those converts realised that actually, they wouldn't need that generator if the battery was large enough for their daily needs. The fleet would then change to far more BEV than ePower. And it would have been the ePower experience that led to that.

 

Then you end up with tens of thousands of slightly more efficient petrol driven cars (like the e-Power Note) driving around and polluting cities and elsewhere. And they will still be driving around for years to come.

We like to think we know the end game ie that sometime in the future we will all be driving around in high capacity bevs but it is the getting there that is the question and things never develop quite as we thought they would.

What I am sure of though is that every one of those bevs will have electric motors turning their wheels.

How big the batteries are, how fast they charge, the state of the charging infrastructure and what level of autonomy we will be at, are all things I can only guess at, now.
So now I think about what might meet my needs and pocket now and for the very near future.
My strategy for the likes of Nissan is to do what you can do now that will be right for now, the near future and long term in the certainty that it will be part of future vehicles.
And that is getting the electric motors in place.

 

So Nissan should redesign the Qashqai to make it a BEV.
Start off by examining what the top spec should be, lets say AWD 88 kWh 400 bhp 300 mile range.
Now add e-Power REX option.
With this they pare down to get the complete range of specs to suit all their customers, the base model being simply a petrol only fill series hybrid FWD.
Nissan give their customers what they want ie a Qashqai at a price that suits their pocket and Nissan retain the Qashqai's market position.
What is wrong with that?

 

Now we're getting down to the nitty-gritty.

So Nissan should redesign the Qashqai to make it a BEV.

Yes, can't argue with that.

Start off by examining what the top spec should be, lets say AWD 88 kWh 400 bhp 300 mile range.

Sounds good.

Now add e-Power REX option.

Spoiler: Click here for my answer

This might come as a surprise, but I'm going to say yes to this. It's their best selling car, and to mitigate any potential risk to that market position, they might need to reluctantly offer some sort of comfort blanket to any sceptics in the short term.

With this they pare down to get the complete range of specs to suit all their customers, the base model being simply a petrol only fill series hybrid FWD.

Petrol only fill? Does that mean no plug-in facility? If so... no, the plug-in option should always be there.

Nissan give their customers what they want ie a Qashqai at a price that suits their pocket and Nissan retain the Qashqai's market position.

Yes.

What is wrong with that?

In theory, not very much, subject to clarification that all vehicles should have plug-in ability. The focus should still be on BEV development, with modest improvements to e-Power only if required.

 

Now we're getting down to the nitty-gritty.


Yes, can't argue with that.


Sounds good.

Spoiler: Click here for my answer

This might come as a surprise, but I'm going to say yes to this. It's their best selling car, and to mitigate any potential risk to that market position, they might need to reluctantly offer some sort of comfort blanket to any sceptics in the short term.

Petrol only fill? Does that mean no plug-in facility? If so... no, the plug-in option should always be there.


Yes.


In theory, not very much, subject to clarification that all vehicles should have plug-in ability. The focus should still be on BEV development, with modest improvements to e-Power only if required.

The strategy is all about retaining/increasing market share.
The base model is for those who simply have no reliable home charging and the battery capacity is as much as is necessary to act as the buffer between the generator and electric motor. So no need for socket and stuff to charge.
My guess is that an Acenta FWD 24 kWh model with REX will outsell all the other specs put together if Nissan are sensible with pricing but I also like to think that a Tekna 60 BEV will sell well also.

 

We can all dream up ideas of what OEMs should do, but I really don't want to see future BEV designs being compromised so people can choose to have a tiny battery and ICE in it. Personally, I don't want a Volvo Q40 BEV that looks the same as a mild hybrid version and has associated compromised packaging.

I dream of more, new, inspiring "BEV only" designs and give Jaguar full praise for designing the iPace to be bigger on inside than a comparable size ICE. Same goes for Model 3 which also has more interior and boot space than similar sized ICE.

 

We can all dream up ideas of what OEMs should do, but I really don't want to see future BEV designs being compromised so people can choose to have a tiny battery and ICE in it. Personally, I don't want a Volvo Q40 BEV that looks the same as a mild hybrid version and has associated compromised packaging.

I dream of more, new, inspiring "BEV only" designs and give Jaguar full praise for designing the iPace to be bigger on inside than a comparable size ICE. Same goes for Model 3 which also has more interior and boot space than similar sized ICE.

Yes, lovely cars but look at the price. They are of no relevance to Joe and Jo Average Driver. Compromise is necessary to get affordable electric driving experience within the reach of the majority soon. Sometimes an indirect route to the top of the mountain is better than the direct route.

Think how many LEAFs and Zoes would be out there now if Nissan & Renault had not done give away PCP deals. Now the deals have gone and PCP is realistic year on year sales of BEVs are flat. Coincidence? I think not.

Now with the 'Road to Zero' report published today there is the prospect of the £4500 grant being reduced as soon as Oct 2018. Would makers drop their prices? I doubt it.

Affordability not purity is the key to adoption in my view.

To replace my LEAF with a 40 kWh LEAF or a one year old i3 94 Ahr REx will cost me £10k more than replacing my 2004 ICE with a new ICE equivalent to the LEAF. Am I going to drop an extra £10K just to be 'green' or run the 24 kWh LEAF on and keep another ICE as well for the bits the LEAF cannot do? No prizes for guessing correctly.

£10k invested in a renewable energy company instead will more than compensate for the CO2e emissions from having another ICE and help fund an affordable BEV or a plug-in E-Power when they finally turn up.

 

The e-Power unit has Nissan putting electric motors in place in high volume.
That allows customers to experience driving electric in high volume.

I'm not sure that 'a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down' approach is really needed any more. I think people know that electric cars work, and the specific 'electric experience' is not really much of a selling point to the mass market.

There is currently a smoke screen being made by Nissan that the e-Power unit is not suitable for European markets. Are we to believe they are incapable of pairing the new Leaf with the e-Power unit and making it work for us?, of course not! Perhaps they will do that first

I hope they don't. I like the fact that you can look at a specific model and see straightaway that is a pure BEV.

...but I feel that the time is right to electrify the Qashqai/Rogue and bring Nissan up to speed with the transition to ev

They have been caught napping to some extent on the EV front, but I don't think they themselves need hybrids as a transition. Yes, I think they could use the Qashqai with e-Power as a 'vehicle' to introduce EVs to the masses, but only because making it full BEV only is a gamble they do not need to take on what is their best selling UK car.

I don't like the idea of a Qashqai e-Power, but I wouldn't blame them if they did it, as long as it was only the Qashqai that they did it to. Just to reiterate, it must have plug-in ability. I don't see the point in not offering plug-in, even if the driver never uses it, as the next one might.

 

AutoExpress 16th June 2018

The next-generation Nissan Qashqai, due in showrooms in 2020, will feature two new hybrid systems plus a sleek design makeover, Auto Express can exclusively reveal... However, there won’t be a pure-electric version...

Full electric power will be reserved for a separate SUV model based on an all-new platform...

Speaking exclusively to Auto Express, Ponz Pandikuthira, vice-president of product planning for Nissan Europe, said: “We are looking at a new platform because that’s what’s best to accommodate electrified technologies...

...We’re not pursuing a big plug-in hybrid strategy. On some car lines we’ll try it out, but the business case for plug-in hybrids is not very good. For us, it’s a bridge technology for the next two to four years until battery costs drop to the point where the variable costs of making full EVs prevail.” ...

Plug-in hybrid tech will come from Mitsubishi, widely accepted as a leader in the technology...

New high-tech 2020 Nissan Qashqai set to go hybrid

Worth reading the rest of the article, if you are interested in filling in the blanks,.

 

AutoExpress 16th June 2018

New high-tech 2020 Nissan Qashqai set to go hybrid

Worth reading the rest of the article, if you are interested in filling in the blanks,.

@TVEV Thanks for that. That's really interesting article since it is the clearest indication yet for some delay in bringing E-Power to Europe in something heavier than a Note i.e a Qashqai. Because the higher speeds of European driving compared with Japanese driving requires an ICE with more output at one of its efficient operating point(s). The E-Power Note in Japan runs a 1.2l 3 cylinder at 2500 rpm when charging. For better fuel efficiency it looks like they are turning to the more advanced Mitsubishi engine which I assume could perhaps run on two or three pots as required in order to keep up when needed and may be direct injection for greater power out at the same sort of rpm.

Wonder if a performance E-Power could have super capacitors in addition to the battery? This would allow powerful regen and a boost for acceleration to take some of the hammering on charge/discharge cycles that the very small battery in an E-Power would be subjected to.

 

Beebaaah!

No, this is ICE thinking.

The larger the engine the more efficient it is.

Show me a counter example.

If you need an explanation then let me know.

I offer the i3 rex engine as a perfect counter example.
It is so efficient because it's purpose is to only be used for about 5% of the user's annual mileage.
This is pragmatic EV thinking.

 

That makes it;-
a part of an efficient machine, not necessarily
an efficient part of a machine.

 

Some digging unearthed this:

https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/DOCUMENT/PDF/SR/2017/SR17_E_P116.pdf

(Nissan Motor Sustainability Report 2017)

On marked page 136 (page 21 of 26 according to the pdf reader) there is an assessment of the lifetime CO2e reduction (18%) of an E-Note over the same generation Note. There is also an assessment of the LEAF compared with an equivalent sized ICE. A 40% reduction for the BEV. These are assessments carried out by Nissan but independently verified.

The figures are there. You decide from the numbers if the E-Power is a good or evil relative to a pure BEV in respect of CO2e. For NOx and PM there is no contest and seems to me to be the strongest reason to be getting rid of ICEs as soon as it is achievable.

The comparison for the LEAF because of the date of the report (2017) will be for the 30 kWh LEAF. With a bigger battery in the 40 kWh LEAF the CO2e associated with manufacture will rise and the lifetime reduction compared with an equivalent ICE will be less.

The critical factors look to be the renewable mix in electricity generation and the size of battery in the BEV or E-Power cars. Good public charging would tend to counter the drift to very large battery BEVs.

@NissanGB Thanks to Nissan for publishing their 2017 sustainability report.

 

I still think it is a big mistake to assume everyone wants a huge battery.

I think 40~50kWh should be the standard, with additional options to 'extend' that either with more battery (no problem with that if it is really needed) or with some other energy generating device. Possibly ICE, but there are alternatives now, and there will be more options in the future that we've not even seen yet.

 

It is nice to know we share the same dislike to watch England loose.
Anyway I am not assuming everyone wants a huge battery, just that battery capacities will get bigger and bigger to the extent people will not give it any more consideration than they we do now as to the size of the petrol tank in the new car we have our eye on. You just assume it's enough to suit that model.
The frustration is that for individuals the pace of change is not fast enough whereas it is too fast for the industry.
So my forth reason is the rex ought to suit both.

 

Even the smallest UK production city cars with the smallest petrol tanks have a range of over 350 miles. That is not to say that people want to drive them for 350 miles in one journey. What it means is that they will have to fill them with fuel after they have travelled in the car for around 350 miles.

Rightly or wrongly, people will tend to expect to not have to fill their cars up with fuel, whether it be electricity or fossil fuels, until they have driven the car for around 350 miles.

So, will the mass market learn to accept electric cars that require more frequent fuels stops, or will they hold on to their ICE until less frequent fuel stops in an electric car is financially and logistically workable for them?

 

People have fixated on batteries because from the outset the most frequent asked question was how far can you go on a full charge. But it was just a dumb question that seemed intelligent to ask in the absence of any knowledge of ev.
However people are not happy to pay over the odds for something they perceive to be inferior. That is still the biggest hurdle to overcome.
So concentrate on getting the electric motors in place. Make people realise that driving electric is actually better and that they don't need to wear a hair-shirt to do so.

 

May I take the risk of reviewing what has been written at #57 and #58 because I think the same words but in different contexts are causing disagreement when in fact in the same context there is agreement?

Cars are often about image and 'big' as in more powerful has always sold cars. For example my uncle 'progressed' from restoring a classic 3.5l Bentley to one of the few straight 8 6l cars left in the world. As W.O Bentley described it 'a bigger thump'. We have today ICEs that are far more powerful than is practically needed on UK roads.

In the BEV world 'big' links to more energy capacity in a battery than is usually needed. The heart of the matter is not about the physical size of the battery or the physical size of the engine. It is about over powering the vehicle and in the case of the BEV additionally adding more range insurance.

Part of having a battery of greater energy capacity is that it allows you to extract more power at a given moment and thus we have like the ICE the same 'walk-up' of electric motor size towards more peak power than is really necessary. The LEAF motor is walking up as the battery capacity increases and is already far more than is really necessary for a practical car.

In the ICE the question is: Does the ICE consume more resources in the engine compartment than it need do and thus have an excessive CO2e footprint for manufacture? For the BEV does the battery have more capacity than is practically needed yielding an excessive CO2e footprint since the CO2e battery footprint increase is roughly linear with the capacity of the battery and the battery CO2e manufacture footprint is the cause of BEV footprints being larger than for equivalent ICEs.

Nobody is saying we should be forced to buy spartan vehicles and the market will always tend to provide choice but rather the question is: Should government policy (i.e. tax I suspect) encourage sizing of both ICEs and BEVs to constrain better and sooner the lifetime CO2e footprint?

I wonder if anybody has done a study to show the reduction in lifetime CO2e that might be achieved if a good public charging network powered by renewables reduced the car buyers tendency to oversize their battery capacity as a costly individual safety net against running out when we could do that as a joined-up society with reliable and frequent public charges at a potentially lower cost.

The corresponding study is what can a public charging network do to reduce the demand for a REx in each car as an alternative approach to handling range anxiety.

ICE peak power output and BEV battery capacity and when is enough enough put into some context the discussion about the E-Power being a good or evil thing in terms of CO2e reduction.

 

...Nobody is saying we should be forced to buy spartan vehicles and the market will always tend to provide choice but rather the question is: Should government policy (i.e. tax I suspect) encourage sizing of both ICEs and BEVs to constrain better and sooner the lifetime CO2e footprint?

I wonder if anybody has done a study to show the reduction in lifetime CO2e that might be achieved if a good public charging network powered by renewables reduced the car buyers tendency to oversize their battery capacity as a costly individual safety net against running out when we could do that as a joined-up society with reliable and frequent public charges at a potentially lower cost....

The problem is, you and me and probably most of the people reading this forum, might be willing to make some compromises in order improve our local air quality, but is the mass market. That said, the least amount of times I have to stop and charge the better.

If there were huge tax or other financial advantages to having a smaller battery and having to charge more frequently, then maybe I would be willing to compromise. It's a big maybe, as having the convenience of not having to charge as often is huge as well.

 

Sorry to resurrect an ancient thread but finally, after four years, Nissan is to release a car with its new e-Power series drive train. The new Qashqai will be powered by a series hybrid system with a small battery driving an EV chassis much like the Ariya and a petrol generator proving ongoing power without actually driving the wheels. All of the driving experience of an Ariya ( with a background hum of an engine ) and with a huge driving range. With the fuel costs for both petrol and EV being similar per mile these days it could attract a lot of EV drivers who are becoming increasingly disenchanted by the charging infrastructure.

 

Sad times.

@donald will rightly point out that a well driven ICE will have similar overall emissions to a BEV over a long journey with the current electricity mix, but that is NOT how the majority of these will be used. And unlike PHEVs these are not a "gateway" to the full BEV experience. Instead they represent a technological blind alley that will slow the required move away from fossil fuels.

And to think that Nissan were one of the companies that lead the move to make mainstream EVs available 10 years ago.

 

Sad times.

@donald will rightly point out that a well driven ICE will have similar overall emissions to a BEV over a long journey with the current electricity mix,

Invoking the @donald hyperweapon so early is interesting. But this sentence is wrong. If you misspoke over emmissions with the BEV part, and meant to write HEV, then I agree. The e-Power car is indeed an ICE in reality - with a similar emission and consumption rating as an average pure ICE car of the same size and power. The difference is the drive experience which would be nearer to a BEV than a pure ICE. Just with an annoying buzz in the background from the generator. And that could cause a few BEV drivers to go over to the dark side. Especially when daily running costs are almost identical for people without a home charger advantage. The range part and the flaky infrastructure are powerful persuasive factors to drivers who need frequent ranges beyond 100 miles round trips.

You start by saying 'Sad times'. This would indicate that you are a keen advocate of the BEV solution. Perhaps on environmental grounds. But the solution for your desire is to lobby strongly for more, and more reliable chargers out there. Tesla style. They understood the chicken/egg process much better. Until a BEV can be charged reliably, rapidly, and on ever street corner, there will still be a niche market for cars like this Qashqai.

 

In theory as the ICE engine can be run at its most efficient and using something like the Atkinson cycle this should be more efficient than a pure ICE of the same size.
Where I think they have missed the boat is putting in a larger battery and a plug, this would then be serial hybrid with a range extender... Now where did I see some of those?

 

Absolutely right. But perhaps they calculated that the price of such a car would take it up another £10k and that would be well beyond what people would pay. The Qashqai has always been very popular and it will now sell to both ICE drivers who are terrified of range anxiety as well as to disenchanted EV drivers who have also found that aspect to be a concern.

The takeup will be interesting to watch. I intend to try a test drive. Partly for personal information. But also because ......who knows..... it might fit into my own driving pattern quite well.

 

The technology of e-power has worked well in Japan in the Note. But the driving speeds in Japan are slower than in the UK. The efficiency (i.e. mpg) at UK motorway speeds will be poor. Like most things it is a compromise in design and had strong and weak points. It is an alternative rather than out and out good or bad. Personally rather than consider the potentially marginal CO2 case, the fact e-power produces PM is the reason I would try to avoid it.

 

The technology of e-power has worked well in Japan in the Note. But the driving speeds in Japan are slower than in the UK. The efficiency (i.e. mpg) at UK motorway speeds will be poor....

Pity it doesn't have a lock-up clutch for higher speeds, like the Outlander.