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OCTOPUS! GIVE ME A PRICE CUT!

7.3K views 65 replies 24 participants last post by  Brian G  
#1 ·
The basic variable price has fallen from the peak of 33p (subsidised) to 24p.

It is no longer plausible to leave the overnight rate at 7.5p. Rivals are now undercutting Octopus on price. Gas is getting cheaper relative to Octopus's electricity tariffs, hurting the economics of heat pumps and hot water cylinders.

We need to see a price below 6p.
 
#7 ·
On a similar note, The last time Octopus Electroverse offered a 'Price Plunge' on its public EV charging was Mid-December, despite us having plenty of wind generation since then. It seems the bigger a company gets the more they care about the shareholders and not so much their customers.
 
#10 ·
I switched to Agile today. As a heat pump user i can see cheap power in the middle of the day coming and get the benefit of a high COP. We will also benefit from wind across Europe via the interconnectors. Germany’s solar PV causes price plunges so we can benefit from that!
 
#12 · (Edited)
Whos cheaper than 7.5p? Very happy at that rate with 15p export. Just more entitlement.

I would say expect electricity to be a lot more expensive than this in the medium to long term.

I saw an article recently suggesting electricity could double from current prices under Labour

This is the cost on domestic electric to cover net zero commitments now they have rolled back from centralised funding commitments.

We are a net importer of electricity now and renewables are very expensive. There is an exponential increase in electricity usage with switch to EV and electric heating / industry (arc furnaces etc)

Time for a reality check.
 
#14 ·
We are a net importer of electricity now and renewables are very expensive. There is an exponential increase in electricity usage with switch to EV and electric heating / industry (arc furnaces etc)

Time for a reality check.
Do you have references to back any of this up? Everyting I've read says on-shore wind is the least expensive form of power generation.
 
#15 ·
I guess that it is probably technically true that the increase in electricity use could be exponential... in the sense that it might grow at 2% per year compounding, even though it has decreased almost every year since 2012. And the UK is 'now' a net importer of electricity, and has been every year since 2012 except 2022. And renewables are 'very' expensive, if you arbitrarily decide that 3p/kWh is a reasonable cost of generation.
Or something.
 
#17 ·
We are a net importer, the data is on the National Grid web site. BUT things are moving fast with energy. French nuclear fleet was in the doldrums in the summer of 2022 but it has been repaired by and large. France is the clearing house for electricity for Spain, Italy, Switzerland and to some extent Germany.

Spain has loads of wind turbines up on the central plateau and Portugal has a lot too along the border with Spain. There has been a lot of on shore wind developed in Germany in the last 12 months and the low countries have plenty too, so when it blows a hooley over northern Europe they have a surplus of cheap power. Germany also has a lot of solar PV and on many days they have price plunges in the middle of the day. We are now connected to France 4 GW, and 1.4 GW each to Belgium, The Netherlands, Denmark and Norway and Germany is in the build stage. Norway acts as pumped storage for northern Europe, when there is surplus renewables they take it and hold back their hydro power. The UK has a lot of wind in the mix and with 5 GW being built ready for 2025/6 we should see gas usage reduced even more. Europe has reduced its need for gas since the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Germany's industry must have been squandering it because along with reduced needs for CCGT they and France reduced consumption by 15% and in the UK gas consumption has fallen considerably, price sensitivity and wind blowing has helped a lot. Hence the gas futures are falling like a stone. They may have hit the bottom about now but there is no shortage of gas, nor the LNG tankers to ship it. LNG world output is increasing with Senegal, Canada and the US adding new plant this year, possibly Mozambique later and Australia next year. On top of that Qatar will double its output in 2026/7 adding another 5% or more to total world output in one go. LNG tankers are being built in at least 5 shipyards to cope with this additional output. Three/four ships will be launched every month for at least the next 18 months. Consequently any issues with routing round Capetown from the Middle East won't affect supply, but might add a small price for the longer time on board. The Panama canal closure has caused ships from Peru to come via the Magellan Straits but again the extra few days makes little difference to the price because they are not paying the toll for the canal. The prediction is that LNG tankerage will exceed crude oil tankerage by 2027/8, with the increase in renewables being built we might just find that we are reaching peak LNG in the next 18 months.

UK electricity consumption will rise, but heat pumps won't have a big impact yet. Last year a mere 32,000 were installed, we might hit 50,000 this year which is a long way off the 600,000 the govt aims for in 2028. There are said to be 200,000 heat pumps installed, that is likely an under estimate but peak demand is likely to be no more than 500MW in the height of winter. Rising demand will be easily met by more renewables. As for EVs they impact the night demand more than anything but even with a million on the roads many will charge only twice a week and on most nights this winter we see CCGT making up only the minimum amount of power to provide frequency stabilisation. Industry will make a difference but gas demanded by industry is tiny. The statistics show about 5 mcm being used compared with domestic demand of 190 mcm yesterday. Steel production by electric hearths is much more efficient than blast furnaces and I suspect brick kilns will be much better insulated with any waste heat recycled when they go electric.

In summary there is little to think that we will suffer electricity shortages, the biggest issue is bottlenecks in the grid and these are all scheduled for fixing. Scottish Hydro or SSEN has works in hand to bring new wind power power down to Denny and Fife, Scottish Power has a large programme of works out to tender to bring power around Scotland's Central Belt from the north and the new wind farms off the coast near Edinburgh and Fife as well as a host of big on shore wind farms which are being added to. The sub station on the border near Carlisle is to be extended and completely rebuilt to handle more power and of course the HVDC links to run round the border to Blythe and Drax are in the stages of early development. The Dogger Bank 5 GW is under construction, 2.4 GW of Hornsea 3 is to go ahead soon as well as 4 GW off East Anglia. The Irish Sea has some 5 GW in development and the South Coast 1.2 GW off Worthing to be built later in the decade. We might be a bit behind where we would like to be with renewables but there is plenty of work in hand.
 
#18 ·
We are a net importer, the data is on the National Grid web site. BUT things are moving fast with energy. French nuclear fleet was in the doldrums in the summer of 2022 but it has been repaired by and large. France is the clearing house for electricity for Spain, Italy, Switzerland and to some extent Germany.

Spain has loads of wind turbines up on the central plateau and Portugal has a lot too along the border with Spain. There has been a lot of on shore wind developed in Germany in the last 12 months and the low countries have plenty too, so when it blows a hooley over northern Europe they have a surplus of cheap power. Germany also has a lot of solar PV and on many days they have price plunges in the middle of the day. We are now connected to France 4 GW, and 1.4 GW each to Belgium, The Netherlands, Denmark and Norway and Germany is in the build stage. Norway acts as pumped storage for northern Europe, when there is surplus renewables they take it and hold back their hydro power. The UK has a lot of wind in the mix and with 5 GW being built ready for 2025/6 we should see gas usage reduced even more. Europe has reduced its need for gas since the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Germany's industry must have been squandering it because along with reduced needs for CCGT they and France reduced consumption by 15% and in the UK gas consumption has fallen considerably, price sensitivity and wind blowing has helped a lot. Hence the gas futures are falling like a stone. They may have hit the bottom about now but there is no shortage of gas, nor the LNG tankers to ship it. LNG world output is increasing with Senegal, Canada and the US adding new plant this year, possibly Mozambique later and Australia next year. On top of that Qatar will double its output in 2026/7 adding another 5% or more to total world output in one go. LNG tankers are being built in at least 5 shipyards to cope with this additional output. Three/four ships will be launched every month for at least the next 18 months. Consequently any issues with routing round Capetown from the Middle East won't affect supply, but might add a small price for the longer time on board. The Panama canal closure has caused ships from Peru to come via the Magellan Straits but again the extra few days makes little difference to the price because they are not paying the toll for the canal. The prediction is that LNG tankerage will exceed crude oil tankerage by 2027/8, with the increase in renewables being built we might just find that we are reaching peak LNG in the next 18 months.

UK electricity consumption will rise, but heat pumps won't have a big impact yet. Last year a mere 32,000 were installed, we might hit 50,000 this year which is a long way off the 600,000 the govt aims for in 2028. There are said to be 200,000 heat pumps installed, that is likely an under estimate but peak demand is likely to be no more than 500MW in the height of winter. Rising demand will be easily met by more renewables. As for EVs they impact the night demand more than anything but even with a million on the roads many will charge only twice a week and on most nights this winter we see CCGT making up only the minimum amount of power to provide frequency stabilisation. Industry will make a difference but gas demanded by industry is tiny. The statistics show about 5 mcm being used compared with domestic demand of 190 mcm yesterday. Steel production by electric hearths is much more efficient than blast furnaces and I suspect brick kilns will be much better insulated with any waste heat recycled when they go electric.

In summary there is little to think that we will suffer electricity shortages, the biggest issue is bottlenecks in the grid and these are all scheduled for fixing. Scottish Hydro or SSEN has works in hand to bring new wind power power down to Denny and Fife, Scottish Power has a large programme of works out to tender to bring power around Scotland's Central Belt from the north and the new wind farms off the coast near Edinburgh and Fife as well as a host of big on shore wind farms which are being added to. The sub station on the border near Carlisle is to be extended and completely rebuilt to handle more power and of course the HVDC links to run round the border to Blythe and Drax are in the stages of early development. The Dogger Bank 5 GW is under construction, 2.4 GW of Hornsea 3 is to go ahead soon as well as 4 GW off East Anglia. The Irish Sea has some 5 GW in development and the South Coast 1.2 GW off Worthing to be built later in the decade. We might be a bit behind where we would like to be with renewables but there is plenty of work in hand.
Surely that all means there will be surplus electricity almost every night. A company that can control usage between 11 pm and 6 am is going to profit.

More important to handle the bottlenecks by switching cars on and off than selling blindly?
 
#20 ·
I'm struggling to feel charity here for people paying 7.5p/kWh who think they should pay less: this is an incredible deal by any normal standard. Especially given the 6 cheap hours of electricity if you have a home battery. People on economy 7 meters, by contrast, are getting a terrible deal. e.g. anyone unlucky enough to still have storage heaters.

It isn't like this is justified by the fundamentals of the wholesale market... wholesale price is typically only a couple of p/kWh cheaper overnight than the rest of the day. The real-world improvement of charging the car at exactly the right time overnight is even smaller than this. The actual advantage to Octopus is in developing capability and market share in this domain, rather than practical benefit to the grid.

Also from a distributional point of view we are talking about people with EVs and home charging, who are mostly property owners (generally with a driveway, so on average larger) and able to afford newish and relatively expensive cars.
 
#21 ·
I’ve said many times that electricity companies clearly see Ecconomy7 as the place where grannies who are ripe to be ripped off reside. I’ve also mentioned before that a guy I worked with, his mum, was paying 25p/kWh off peak. He was about to pay thousands to have the storage heaters ripped out and a different heating system installed. On my advice he kept the storage heaters as put her on Go, which at the time was 5p/kWh off peak and 15p/kWh peak.
 
#24 ·
This coming week isn’t good for renewables in the UK but gas fired electricity isn’t breaking the bank. I switched to Agile because I foresee cheaper daytime power coming in March/April. Normally we are home and heating hot water with a heat pump at 14:00 will score cheap power plus give a much higher COP to negate the loss of 7.5p at night. The car can charge on good days and nights i will only come unstuck if we need to charge the car on a poor day for renewables!
 
#27 ·
I’ve been hovering over the switch button to go back to Agile. I see you have the same effect as I do… last time I switched off Agile because it was getting costly the wind then blew solidly for a month. Likewise when I switched over onto Agile last spring the wind instantly locked into a pattern of missing the Uk.
 
#25 ·
Intelligent octopus problem isnt the 7.5p overnight rate, it's the high daytime rate. I switched a few weeks ago, working from home and the agile day rate being 10-12p was far too attractive, especially as I'm able to pick and choose which nights I charge the car.

Generally my cost for charging has been around 7.5p, but I've halved the daytime cost.
 
#30 ·
#31 ·
Another issue is that IOG is now so cheap that the advice here is often "don't bother with solar, just get batteries"... i.e. it is already so cheap that it removes the incentive for domestic green generation (along with generous 15p/kWh export tarriffs). You may as well just fill your battery as many times as you can and sell off the energy for 15p/kWh, up to about twice a day.

It is good that these tarriffs are kickstarting the battery installation industry in the UK, and fostering innovation in grid balancing etc., but not totally clear that the incentives achieve maximum short-term green outcomes or reduce costs for other players.
 
#36 ·
I'm not being funny, but if you don't like the rates why don't you just move to another supplier?
Posting on here won't get any attention from octopus and your forgetting the other factor.

While you have been paying 7.5p for a food while, octopus haven't been paying that but have often been paying more at times so taking a loss on those slots. It balances out overall but do remember they are a business and if you don't like how they are for you, then choose another supplier surely?
 
#38 ·
I have ASHP for heating and hot water, plus induction hob, plus EV, plus solar (useless in January) and batteries, and IOG is perfectly fine price-wise just as it is for people like me who make as much use of the off-peak as is possible even accepting the really cold days means the ASHP is using peak rate during the day once the battery is exhausted.
My average rate was 10.19p/kWh across January and I'm a very happy customer with that sort of rate.
Image
 
#43 ·
My ciggy-packet maths ;-
My January Gas use ( only space heating) was 1550kwh, heating the house how we like it
Giving boiler the benefit of the doubt, re efficiency, probably 1400 kwh of heat
COP of 4 would be 11.3 kwh/day COP of 3.5 would be 12.9 kwh/day

So my 13kwh usable battery is marginal, definitely on colder days……gonna suck it and see
 
#48 ·
Image


Mainly East facing. We have tall trees behind and a tall house next door. The sun is low in winter so we get very little direct solar exposure in the main generating hours for our panels.

However its already started to improve quite considerably towards end of February.. it generated 16kwh yesterday exported 7kwh at 15p. Kwh

Its first year we had in I really wasn't expecting it to generate anything December - February I am pleased with it. Last summer on good days we were getting 35 - 38kwh.

Just fully charging battery at 7.5p and exporting everything at 15p. Should generate around ÂŁ1000 in export income over next 12 months. The payback on the system is 4 - 5 years as things stand. 20% ROI per annum pretty good really.