[Harry_Zoe]

... But for a bedroom I would have thought IR is not great. Unless ceiling mounted?

True, but if I put it up there then it would block the view in the mirror!

 

[Alnair]

True, but if I put it up there then it would block the view in the mirror!

Infrared Mirror Heaters Archives

Herschel's range of Infrared Mirror heaters combines a mirror with a heater. Highly stylish with no condensation. Perfect for bathrooms.

www.herschel-infrared.co.uk

Joking aside, I'm pondering the purchase of such a heating mirror for my OH's office area... not sure if the premium attached to the brand is worth the £260 difference from a much cheaper one off Amazon 🤔

 

[Stinsy]

It's a claim made by infrared panel manufacturers.

If you stand in front of the panel it may make you feel warmer than otherwise in a room heated by a radiator, but it's not otherwise going to warm the room more than any x kW source.

This is the reason pubs/outdoor areas use infrared lamps to heat up open areas. Almost anything else would be ineffective as you would need so much power to compete with the outside air cooling it down. But for a bedroom I would have thought IR is not great. Unless ceiling mounted?

I get that IR heating works in draughty spaces. Hence has been used in pub smoking areas. Works too in industrial applications, eg if you have workers packaging goods in a huge warehouse. However if your home is draughty, fix the draughts!

In a domestic application there will be zero benefit to IR over and above other kinds of resistive heating.

 

[barneyd]

I think of them the same way as fans. They change how warm/cool it feels, not the actual temperature. There is value in that, but not enough to make me abandon my wet central heating just yet.

 

[Pmholling]

I get that IR heating works in draughty spaces. Hence has been used in pub smoking areas. Works too in industrial applications, eg if you have workers packaging goods in a huge warehouse. However if your home is draughty, fix the draughts!

In a domestic application there will be zero benefit to IR over and above other kinds of resistive heating.

I agree the areas of application, domestically, are limited. However, where they actually work really well is for people performing sedentary/stationary activities. You can keep the room temperature a couple of degrees cooler than you would otherwise. This can be compounded with extra clothing. In reality there is more potential benefit in office workspaces, where the battle over temperature is more acute.

 

[Stinsy]

Just been reading the DNO regs re inverters and export. Looks like a 5 kW inverter needs to be G100 compliant to fit even without solar. Software control of export amount is not good enough. A sub 3.68kW inverter makes life simpler. Can't see any G100 compliant inverters for reasonable money.

DNOs are very conservative. All inverters take time to react so when your kettle flips off you'll be exporting untill the inverter notices and turns down its power.

The DNO doesn't care that you don't intend to export, that your inverter is there and connected to the grid is enough for them to assume it'll be exporting at full chat right at the worst time.

G100 certified inverters simplify the application process, but the DNO will still do their calculations based on it exporting at its rated capacity for short periods.

 

[Trevor Larkum]

You have to request permission in either case. The 3.68kW limit changes the application process from G98 to G99.

No, if it's more than 3.68 you have to ask permission, if it's less than 3.68 you can inform them afterwards.

It makes no difference if it’s batteries or solar. The ENA requirements for export are the same regardless of the source.

Yes, there is some truth in this - as Stinsy says above. However in our experience most of the time (i.e. when not on a dodgy overloaded rural transformer) they are happy to effectively ignore the battery inverter if it has G100 capability (which they all do). You must still tell them about it though.

 

[Hartswood]

I did the G99 myself. When I did it, it asked for your accreditation/qualification but I see Western Power have a new form that doesn't have that on it. They do also seem to have a lot of extra detail about the power generating plant that wasn't on the old version.

There was no fee and they processed it a couple of weeks from recollection. It was back before the battery was delivered anyway!

Just looked at UK Networks very complex forms, all seem to assume authorised installer completes. It sounds like Western Power is more consumer friendly. It's just like EV public chargers, the Government misdirects billions of pounds investment into a failed system. They want us to switch to green energy and load shifting, but then put bureaucratic hurdles in the way. I'm seriously wondering if home storage is worth the bother. A brief web search for authorised installers in my area Essex, shows its an industry with a good few cowboys with many self generated reviews.

 

[tom66]

What are the regulations required to self install home battery storage?

Is it similar to compliance with Part P (i.e. being NICEIC registered or similar, C&G course completed) or are there additional requirements?

I wonder if you could do almost all of the work yourself and just pay a regular sparky to put in the circuit and write the letter to the DNO. The battery systems are usually 50VDC so these are probably outside of the remit of most electricians certification (but they may not be mains-isolated if the inverter is transformerless!) 50VDC is within ELV, but the lack of isolation may push this into another category.

 

[Rbrian]

It's a claim made by infrared panel manufacturers.

If you stand in front of the panel it may make you feel warmer than otherwise in a room heated by a radiator, but it's not otherwise going to warm the room more than any x kW source.

This is the reason pubs/outdoor areas use infrared lamps to heat up open areas. Almost anything else would be ineffective as you would need so much power to compete with the outside air cooling it down. But for a bedroom I would have thought IR is not great. Unless ceiling mounted?

Mine is wall mounted, quite low at the foot of my bed. If it turns out not to be good enough, I might mount another on the ceiling, but that will be more difficult to wire - unless I take it off the lighting circuit? A 720w panel only draws 3 amps, and I've replaced all my lights with LEDs - if all the upstairs lights are on (which they never are at the same time) that's only 500w, so it'll probably be fine - but I doubt it's a good idea. I'd appreciate some input from someone like @Jeremy Harris here.

In the kitchen/living room, I'm planning to put one on the wall next to the sofa, warming me when I'm watching TV or gaming, and another ceiling mounted above the dining table, taking the power from the upstairs ring main.

I won't know for sure until winter - I'm hoping not to use my gas heating, but I won't disconnect it until I'm sure. The panels aren't expensive, so I could cover the ceiling in them if that seems necessary.

 

[Gary Bainbridge]

The battery systems are usually 50VDC

Is this the case? The batteries I've had installed are 110v DC, and with two batteries connected in series, that's 220v DC to the inverter.

 

[Gary Bainbridge]

If you stand in front of the panel it may make you feel warmer than otherwise in a room heated by a radiator, but it's not otherwise going to warm the room more than any x kW source.

That sounds horribly like the gas fire in my flat years ago. Your face would be burning whilst your back was still freezing cold.

 

[robert79]

Is this the case? The batteries I've had installed are 110v DC, and with two batteries connected in series, that's 220v DC to the inverter.

There are different systems depending upon the desired power and battery voltage. Common systems are 12v, 24v, 48v and then you are into "high voltage" DC systems which tend to be more proprietary (ie a brand of inverter will only work with the same brand of battery).
A lot of "DIY" some storage projects seem to be based around 48v batteries.

 

[Gary Bainbridge]

There are different systems depending upon the desired power and battery voltage. Common systems are 12v, 24v, 48v and then you are into "high voltage" DC systems which tend to be more proprietary (ie a brand of inverter will only work with the same brand of battery).
A lot of "DIY" some storage projects seem to be based around 48v batteries.

Surely that results in a lot of current, 3.86kW at 48 volts is 80 amps. A higher voltage system will be easier to install and have less loss.

 

[barneyd]

What are the regulations required to self install home battery storage?

Is it similar to compliance with Part P (i.e. being NICEIC registered or similar, C&G course completed) or are there additional requirements?

I wonder if you could do almost all of the work yourself and just pay a regular sparky to put in the circuit and write the letter to the DNO.

Under Part P, all electrical work must comply with BS7671. Additionally, some work is notifiable to your local authority building control and is recorded on the building control register against your property. The installation of a power generating module connected to the public supply network is also notifiable to the DNO.

I did exactly as you say, put the unit on the wall, wired up all the connections, made the application to the DNO and then got an electrician who was a member of one of the competent person schemes to do the final test, certification and notification to building control.

 

[Stinsy]

What are the regulations required to self install home battery storage?

Is it similar to compliance with Part P (i.e. being NICEIC registered or similar, C&G course completed) or are there additional requirements?

I wonder if you could do almost all of the work yourself and just pay a regular sparky to put in the circuit and write the letter to the DNO. The battery systems are usually 50VDC so these are probably outside of the remit of most electricians certification (but they may not be mains-isolated if the inverter is transformerless!) 50VDC is within ELV, but the lack of isolation may push this into another category.

The rules are the same as for most things electric: you can do much of the work yourself but you need a spark to connect, test, and certify the new circuit.

Battery systems are normally 48V so are ELV (technically FELV rather than SELV or PELV).

However there is a new trend emerging for series strings of batteries that call themselves “High Voltage” or “HV”. I’ve seen them in the range of 100-400V so obviously they are ELV/LV not HV but few people care about the meaning of words these days.

Anyway Part P applies to ELV and LV equally (the only exception is for coms) but “the regs” treat them differently.

 

[Pmholling]

That sounds horribly like the gas fire in my flat years ago. Your face would be burning whilst your back was still freezing cold.

That's why they work best when the 'opposite face' is unable to radiate heat out, eg well ensconced on a sofa or chair, or in a bed. In reality they work well when the default temp of the space you are in is set for moving about, eg housework, cooking etc, and you don't want to heat further when you are sitting still. Given how @Rbrian has described his place the neighbours waste heat may be providing that base load already.

 

[robert79]

Surely that results in a lot of current, 3.86kW at 48 volts is 80 amps. A higher voltage system will be easier to install and have less loss.

The cable between battery and inverter is usually quite short which minimises losses. Plus it's unlikely you will run at rated capacity for long periods of time
The inverter I'm installing will pull 120A from the battery!