"Fill and go" had to laugh and cry, reminds me of the last time I filled my guts with KFC poison.

💩


Gaz

 

Thought you were allowed 10 minutes grace to allow you time to read the conditions displayed and decide if you wanted to accept the contract. If not, you can leave the premises without any penalty.

 

Interesting difficulties here. I spent 5 years appealing Social Security Appeal Tribunal decisions to the High Court. So whilst I have no legal qualifications I do have practical experience gained over 100s of cases.
First question, what is parking? Is charging a car Parking or waiting whilst charging is provided at the site. The payment for a service of charging is different from parking. Parking your car is normally with the intention of leaving it unattended. And whilst you might leave a charging car unattended that is not the main reason for putting the car there: not usually.
I do remember in my youth the parking signs in Blackpool differentiating between parking and waiting. In some places you could not park but you could wait. And I think that was for the purpose of picking up and setting down passengers. Somewhere there will be case law on these definitions and if there isn’t let’s get one sorted.
I had no legal knowledge when I started the job, I could read legislation and rule books or civil service codes, my 5 years was more intensive than many Barristers would experience, fascinating work.

 

The only CPO that helped with PCNs (that I know of) is Osprey. The rest just tell you to pound sand.

TBF, do appeal with POPLA it'll cost ECP £50, do not identify the driver, and throw their subsequent invoices in the recycling bin.

 

There is another thread about the same issue recently, that is someone receiving a PCN whilst charging. Just to add that charging a car at a charging point is not “parking” in the true legal sense.You are stationary ”filling up”. When we drive into a petrol station we go there for the express purpose to fill up and not to go “parking‘. The same petrol station concept of filling up applies to charging at charging points. The issue of PCN’s in this and other case‘s is therefore very dubious, if not unenforceable in law.

Also, most if not all charging areas are leased to the Charging Company’s and therefore the Parking Management Company‘s may actually have no legal or implicit jurisdiction over said such charging areas and spaces/s. Plus the Charging Company’s might actually have agreed commercially sensitive contracts with the land owners for 24 hours unfettered access to the charging points.

 

sorry disagree you are using two different scenarios

a carpark is not a filling station - please explain why the charge point in a car park is magically outside that carpark and to be treated as a filling station.
you might have gone there to that KFC/Morrisons with the intention of only refuelling, and you stay by/in your car the whole time ---- but it does not negate you're in their/their landowners' carpark

BUT
I do agree not enough charge points outside of filling stations have clear signage at the charge point bays.

 

Thanks for your comment Brian and I totally agree with you.

Driving across a car car park area out of hours to access a charging point should never lead to a PCN. A charging point bay area or space is another form of filling station. It is not a parking bay.

A petrol station or a charging point are commercial areas where we conduct a commercial transaction. Areas where we fill up either with petrol or electricity. Charging point bays are leased to the charging companies in any case and therefore Parking Management Companies have no legal jurisdiction over said such charging bays.

 

Quite a few filling station forecourts now have ANPR cameras and a 15 minute limit to access the site. So it pays to take a second to read the rules.

The rules/conditions are more like a site access agreements as opposed to focusing purely on parking. The system only knows when a car enters and leaves a site. It doesn’t know if the car is parked, switched off or whether it’s being driven in circles! In the case where it’s not allowed for the car owner to walk off the site, there could be additional human or camera monitoring.

I know one case was publicised in a local newspaper where a car owner received an invoice because their car wasn’t fully within the white lines. Cue photos of them with angry faces holding the invoice. This could arguably be considered to be money-making tactics, but correct parking was clear in the rules.

 

The ANPR cameras at petrol stations have been mainly installed to capture car registration numbers should someone leave without paying for fuel. The agreement with the land owner for installation of ANPR camera’s would likely be on the basis to deter crime, and not to allow a petrol station to issue PCN‘s as an additional income source,that is from un-suspecting motorists eating their sandwiches after filling up. Or other spurious reasons like staying beyond 15 minutes….or wearing a loud shirt in a built up area…or walking on the cracks of the pavement.

Just to point out that most if not all UK petrol stations do not actually own the land and may not have legal jurisdiction in any case to issue PCN’s. Nearly all UK petrol stations lease their sites with commercial agreements with the land owner, almost certainly with a legal clause allowing 24 hour unfettered access at the site for all and sundry…

 

I should let you know there are Esso /Shell filling stations with MFG chargers that have anpr and will ding you if you stay longer than a defined time . I found out via zapmap/PlugShare.
Either I stay 5mins less than the time, or per their ( parking management company ) rules I go in and register my car plate on their EV override list. I presume it’s checked via dvla.
Something to do with preventing all day parking or taxis-between-jobs - applies to the whole premises.

There was also a very public Gatwick Airport filing station that dinged someone ( ICE driver) for overstay.

Buyer beware.

 

Thanks for the comments above. Some good points. My view is that some Petrol Stations may actually be issuing PCN’s unlawfully,with no jurisdiction.They are not the land owners. It may actually be that the land owner’s are unaware of such practices.

As I mentioned earlier there is likely a legal contract between the Petrol Station and the land owner for 24 hours unfettered access at the site. for all and sundry. I wonder if POPLA has made a ruling on this, that is “overstaying” within a commercially active site such as a petrol station area.


When I was younger petrol stations would fill up for you,they cleaned your windscreen and checked your oil as well.You gave them something called “cash‘ and they then walked back to their hut to give you back your change. And all with a cheerful smile. And three gallons of petrol for £5 with change for a Yorkie bar. Happy days.…

 

I can remember when you could get four gallons for a quid

 

And four pints of beer for 10 bob!

 

More than a year ago I received a parking ticket for over staying a 90 minute limit by 15 minutes in a Lidl car park in Southampton using a Pod Point 7kw charger, during a normal working day.
There were time limit notices, but not prominent, in the car park, or adjacent to the charge point. Therefore I was unaware there was any time limit.
I appealed to PodPoint, Lidl, and Parking Eye, pointing out the poor signage and including a copy of my Lidl store purchase receipt while I was waiting for the car to charge.
I am pleased to say they rescinded the charge, and have subsequently added a time warning notice nearer the charge point.

 

I thought it might be useful to let people know the outcome of my parking fine appeal with POPLA (parking on private land appeals). My appeal was successful so I did not have to pay the £60 parking fine that was issued to me. I was issued a fine parking fine for not paying for parking while using an Instavolt charger in a retail park. POPLA found in my favour because the parking operator did not prove that they had authority from Instavolt to issue a fine for parking in a bay that was marked as operated by Instavolt. My advice for anyone in a similar situation is to appeal to POPLA and ask the parking operator to provide evidence from the charging operator that they have the authority to issue a Parking Charge Notice (PCN). Cheers Gareth

Thanks Gareth, I have received a similar notice and after reading your post, I plan to appeal with POPLA.

 

Thanks Gareth, I have received a similar notice and after reading your post, I plan to appeal with POPLA.
[/QUOTE]
Was it an Instavolt you were using?
Have you got any pictures of the signage at the site?

 

Did you have to even prove you used it? Whats to stop an EV from parking and getting a PCN and then saying you were using the charger? ANPR normally only covers entrance/exit

 

I would say that EV points in private carparks (or indeed council ones) need better signs informing the person charging if parking payment is needed too, or not.
There was a case recently of a Tesla spot at an airport causing outcry when such signs went up saying parking payment was needed.

I can read from appends in speakev that I'm in the minority but my view is these are parking spots that just happen to have a charging point at them, and so carpark payment rules apply the same if no other indication. Whilst Instavolt may have paid the owner money to have marked bays, I will politely ask an EV driver what transmission mode their car is in, when they claimed not to be parked.
And watch as they go off in to the shop/business, or down the road to hit a coffee bar and feed the ducks, still claiming not to be parked.
You are first foremost parked in a car park, and happen then to be making use of a charge point in that particular bay. If you park in a blue badge bay, you are in the carpark still, and you'd follow the signage about whether you pay or not to use that special case bay.

I know others will see it differently, but that's why I started with the comment that clearer signs are needed for EV spots.

 

I can read from appends in speakev that I'm in the minority but my view is these are parking spots that just happen to have a charging point at them, and so carpark payment rules apply the same if no other indication.

IMHO, if its a destination charger then you are there to use the car park and should pay for it. The fact that you can charge your car at the same time is just a bonus.

If its a rapid, you're only there to use the charger (even if you pass the time by feeding the ducks while its charging). Charging a parking fee for using a rapid, is akin to charging to stop at a petrol pump, absolutely bonkers.

Of course, if the rapid chargers are excluded from the normal parking charges, you absolutely need to make sure that there are stiff penalties for people who treat them as parking spaces and aren't charging.

 

A parking spot that happens also to be a charging point. No…do not agree with that assumption.

Let’s un pick this. Firstly, it is the land owner who decides how they use ( or define areas ) on their land. Some areas might be retail buildings. Some areas might be for parking.The land owner might also decide to enter into a contract with a charging company to place charging points on their land. It is not up to us ( the great un washed general public ) to define how the land is used and what is defined as a parking bay or not. We do not own the land. It is the land owner who decides. But hang on a minute.. when I buy petrol at a petrol station I am parked whilst filling up. I am not parking. I am parked. We do not see petrol station‘s issuing charges for being parked at a petrol pump. No, we do not. So the same concept should apply to charging bays. You are parked….but not parking. There should be the same equivalence with petrol stations in that with an electric car it is also filling up…albeit for a longer time. Charging might take minutes or hours. Does not matter to the land owner. The land owner is more than likely somewhere else in this world probably tanning himself or herself on some beach lucky person, who knows and who cares. You are availing yourself of something the land owner wishes you to use. The charging point.To make him or her money.

We are at the infancy of our transition to full electric and my view is that in the future land owners will fit as many charging points as they can physically fit on their land and that we as drivers will be encouraged to stop to charge with no silly or unlawful additional parking charges.

The other thing to mention here is that more than likely the contract between the land owner and the charging company has a written clause that allows charging at said charging bay on an unfettered basis. So a parking management company might attempt to issue a charge but might actually find that they are exceeding their authority from the land owner ( yes, possibly that same land owner who is still tanning himself or herself on said beach…somewhere nice and sunny….whilst happily watching their bank balance go up from said extra parking charges ).

 

But hang on a minute.. when I buy petrol at a petrol station I am parked whilst filling up. I am not parking. I am parked. We do not see petrol station‘s issuing charges for being parked at a petrol pump. No, we do not. So the same concept should apply to charging bays. You are parked….but not parking. There should be the same equivalence with petrol stations in that with an electric car it is also filling up…albeit for a longer time.

This has been discussed before. Shell or BP or whoever that have a charge points on their forecourt don't charge extra for EV parking/charging. Equally there aren't any petrol pumps in car parks. You seem to be blurring the lines between a forecourt and a car park. They are two different places.

So it seems we either need people to understand that a carpark is still a carpark irrespective of what mode of motor vehicle thay have or to stop putting rapid chargers in carparks.
I'm hoping for the second option (which has happened near me).

 

And one other thing. I am of the age ( old ) when there were no parking fees or parking meters. And when car parking was anywhere and everywhere…..free with no charge or incumbrance ( is that a word ? ). Life was much simpler then. You did not worry about parking charges as traffic wardens did not exist….they had not been invented as such. Just be clear here, money we pay for parking goes to the land owner. The parking money is not given to charity. It usually end‘s up ( eventually ) in the pocket of the land owner ( yes, that same pesky person again… that land owner tanning himself or herself on some sunny beach somewhere nice and sunny…and not here in Telford on a cold and wet December evening that is raining cats and dogs.

 

As I understand it, the parking spot is still on the land owners land - so if they've allowed these b@stards to grift there - then the charger spots are fair game too.
You can't infer that the charger operator also operates the parking space.

 

Income from parking does not go to the poor of Africa or charity, it ends up eventually in the land owner’s pocket. I think POPLA might have also recently ruled that Parking Management Firms issuing parking fine notices ( technically not a fine but an ask for some money ) for those whilst stationary in charging bays, whilst charging, could be seen to be unenforceable and/or unlawful.

We should all of us be doing everything possible to make the transition to an electric future as hassle free and smooth as possible and I think issuing punitive parking penalty notices whilst in a charging bay is simply a way to turn people off electric cars. Anyway, I do see a much brighter future. A future where land owners will use their land exclusively for charging and that there will be competition between multiple operators. I hope so. They ( land owners and/or operators ) will more than likely need to actively encourage people ( and not discourage as is sometimes now ) to their chargers and issuing parking fee notices for some minor apparent minor infringement would actually turn people away. We shall see how the future pan’s out…

Maybe the BBC should highlight the issue….

 

Hi Everyone, Thanks for all your views on this. I understand this forum is a couple of years old but If there is anyone that is open to speaking with me please do get in touch. Thanks.

 

Hi Everyone, Thanks for all your views on this. I understand this forum is a couple of years old but posted in the hopes that there may be people on this thread that may be able to point me in the right direction or may know people who have more recently been caught out by parking time restrictions when charging who may be looking at this forum for help. If there is anyone that is open to speaking with me please do get in touch. Thanks.

Doesn't exactly feel like balanced reporting...

 

How can you conclude its not balanced reporting? I think it looks like what journalists doing what they are meant to be doing. You know, researching, finding things out....

Moan about perceived lack of balance in the finished article, by all means - but- minus that finished article- you don't know the whole story of the research phase yet in this case.

 

I dunno, if you are specifically fishing for people who have had problems, instead of asking for people's experiences (good and bad) then it feels unbalanced. You're always going to find problems if you go looking for them, what's important is how frequently those problems occur.

 

TBH, the journalist didn't start this thread so I didn't take it as they were going fishing for problems. For one moment, I thought you were concerned about 'balance' in that the views of the parking cowboys companies were not being represented...
In other news, I used public charging yesterday, and can report nothing bad happened. 👍

 

Thanks @grob for your post and for everyone's follow ups. Using your recommended approach, I successfully appealed against a bill sent by Civil enforcement at the Hogs Back hotel, Seale, Tongham, Farnham, GU10 1EX which is run by Surya Hotels. I for one won't be stopping there again or using any of Surya Hotels in the future - what a waste of time!

 

Hi, what were the circumstances of the fine being given out?

 

Burn Lane Inverurie the front of the car park is pay, using the chargers there you are expected to pay parking. Rear of car park is free parking so chargers there no parking fee. The DC chargers have a 1 hour charge limit then a penalty. AC chargers no time limit but cheaper after 8pm.

 

This extortion needs to stop! Someone should start the petition to the government to force the private car parking management companies to wave their parking fees to at least up to an hour for anyone that wants to use a charging facility on their territory!

 

The problem with not having a parking fee when charging is that some people will plug in even if they don't need a charge just so that they can avoid the parking fee. There are numerous cases where people have plugged in and not started charging to try and 'game the system'.