[Orrery]

I may not be popular with this but I don't understand the logic of thinking
I will go in to this car park, past signs with terms & conditions, and then disagree with a fine if I breach them...

I agree with your sentiments, but the rules in car parks are often unclear. If you are parked on a charger then it may be a reasonable assumption that the space provided specifically for that purpose is operated by the charger network, under specific rules for the charging of a car, and not as per the car park. Unless of course, there is sign that says the rules are the same.

 

[gladini]

And I'm okay with differences in understandings, makes us interesting.

I do think tho the main difference is
those who think there's a charge point as a mini country despite you've driven in to the carpark to reach it.
and
those who think there's a carpark first, which happens to have a couple of bays with charge facility like some have a blue badge facility

 

[Kev86]

KFC Nottigham Road

For reference, these signs are prominently displayed at the charger site (photos taken a few months ago)

Although Instavolt can't give out a penalty charge, they do point out that existing parking restrictions apply.

 

[andydsmith]

I've just received a PCN from euro car parks for a 20 minute stay at an Instavolt rapid charger in Huddersfield on a Sunday evening when all the shops were shut and the car park was deserted.

My son needed to charge after a long trip and only went to that charger because all the Geniepoint chargers in council car parks were broken. He didn't leave the car and only stayed until he'd got enough charge. He didn't realise he needed to pay for parking because he didn't see the signs and because parking is free whist charging at all the other chargers in Huddersfield.

I think we're going to appeal but are not sure of the best approach to take.

 

[CW2]

I've just received a PCN from euro car parks for a 20 minute stay at an Instavolt rapid charger in Huddersfield on a Sunday evening when all the shops were shut and the car park was deserted.

My son needed to charge after a long trip and only went to that charger because all the Geniepoint chargers in council car parks were broken. He didn't leave the car and only stayed until he'd got enough charge. He didn't realise he needed to pay for parking because he didn't see the signs and because parking is free whist charging at all the other chargers in Huddersfield.

I think we're going to appeal but are not sure of the best approach to take.

Might be worthwhile contacting Instavolt. At some locations they appear to have arranged something to allow charging, but ANPR hasn't been configured correctly; at others, there are parking restrictions. Car parks, businesses, supermarkets are all serious risks for a PCN - particularly if they're closed. EV charging is not like refuelling an ICE on a garage forecourt (you can even get a PCN on a garage forecourt). The dwell-time for charging is considered to be parking.


Note that a PCN is not a 'fine'; it's an invoice to pay.

 

[andydsmith]

Might be worthwhile contacting Instavolt. At some locations they appear to have arranged something to allow charging, but ANPR hasn't been configured correctly; at others, there are parking restrictions. Car parks, businesses, supermarkets are all serious risks for a PCN - particularly if they're closed. EV charging is not like refuelling an ICE on a garage forecourt (you can even get a PCN on a garage forecourt). The dwell-time for charging is considered to be parking.


Note that a PCN is not a 'fine'; it's an invoice to pay.

Thanks for that.

This is a supermarket car park and the Instavolt app says parking charges may apply, so I doubt that will work.

It just seems so unfair for 20 minutes in a deserted car park whilst charging a car.

My son didn't see the signs so I think I'll try and argue they weren't prominent.

 

[CW2]

My son didn't see the signs so I think I'll try and argue they weren't prominent.

Good idea. But I'd also complain to Instavolt for future would-be users.

It does seem unfair, especially when some of these sites also have a garage for refuelling which can be used for an ICE.

It's not been well thought out, unless the intention is to keep cars out of the car park at night anyway. My local supermarket (no chargers yet) has 10mins max in the car park when the store is closed.

 

[andydsmith]

Good idea. But I'd also complain to Instavolt for future would-be users.

It does seem unfair, especially when some of these sites also have a garage for refuelling which can be used for an ICE.

It's not been well thought out, unless the intention is to keep cars out of the car park at night anyway. My local supermarket (no chargers yet) has 10mins max in the car park when the store is closed.

OK I'll do that as well.

It's a city centre location with no petrol station. It's only been there July and there are already a few comments on zap map about people getting parking fees.

 

[93410]

My son didn't see the signs so I think I'll try and argue they weren't prominent.

Have you been there to check, or had a look on Google Maps?

My guess is that the signs are sufficient, given that those who don't think they are appeal and the parking company knows that.

 

[Harry6]

Thanks for that.

This is a supermarket car park and the Instavolt app says parking charges may apply, so I doubt that will work.

It just seems so unfair for 20 minutes in a deserted car park whilst charging a car.

My son didn't see the signs so I think I'll try and argue they weren't prominent.

Hi, Have you got pictures of the signage at the site?

 

[andydsmith]

Hi, Have you got pictures of the signage at the site?

My son's getting these now. There are two big signs by the entrance visible on street view so not confident this will work.

 

[Kev86]

I'd strongly recommend Pepipoo forums, they are very knowledgeable and there are many threads you can see previous cases / templates etc.

Do your research BEFORE appealing, don't admit to being the driver.

 

[Peirpoint]

"Fill and go" had to laugh and cry, reminds me of the last time I filled my guts with KFC poison.

💩


Gaz

 

[Soula]

My son's getting these now. There are two big signs by the entrance visible on street view so not confident this will work.

I believe that people should follow the rules and not try to find ways of avoiding them. That said, it is not appropriate to have to stop in the street to read the rules as this would potentially be causing an obstruction. Were there signs visible within the car park?

 

[E7EV]

Thought you were allowed 10 minutes grace to allow you time to read the conditions displayed and decide if you wanted to accept the contract. If not, you can leave the premises without any penalty.

 

[Brian G]

Interesting difficulties here. I spent 5 years appealing Social Security Appeal Tribunal decisions to the High Court. So whilst I have no legal qualifications I do have practical experience gained over 100s of cases.
First question, what is parking? Is charging a car Parking or waiting whilst charging is provided at the site. The payment for a service of charging is different from parking. Parking your car is normally with the intention of leaving it unattended. And whilst you might leave a charging car unattended that is not the main reason for putting the car there: not usually.
I do remember in my youth the parking signs in Blackpool differentiating between parking and waiting. In some places you could not park but you could wait. And I think that was for the purpose of picking up and setting down passengers. Somewhere there will be case law on these definitions and if there isn’t let’s get one sorted.
I had no legal knowledge when I started the job, I could read legislation and rule books or civil service codes, my 5 years was more intensive than many Barristers would experience, fascinating work.

 

[Hobbyist]

The only CPO that helped with PCNs (that I know of) is Osprey. The rest just tell you to pound sand.

TBF, do appeal with POPLA it'll cost ECP £50, do not identify the driver, and throw their subsequent invoices in the recycling bin.

 

[Simonj]

There is another thread about the same issue recently, that is someone receiving a PCN whilst charging. Just to add that charging a car at a charging point is not “parking” in the true legal sense.You are stationary ”filling up”. When we drive into a petrol station we go there for the express purpose to fill up and not to go “parking‘. The same petrol station concept of filling up applies to charging at charging points. The issue of PCN’s in this and other case‘s is therefore very dubious, if not unenforceable in law.

Also, most if not all charging areas are leased to the Charging Company’s and therefore the Parking Management Company‘s may actually have no legal or implicit jurisdiction over said such charging areas and spaces/s. Plus the Charging Company’s might actually have agreed commercially sensitive contracts with the land owners for 24 hours unfettered access to the charging points.

 

[gladini]

There is another thread about the same issue recently, that is someone receiving a PCN whilst charging. Just to add that charging a car at a charging point is not “parking” in the true legal sense.You are stationary ”filling up”. When we drive into a petrol station we go there for the express purpose to fill up and not to go “parking‘. The same petrol station concept of filling up applies to charging at charging points. The issue of PCN’s in this and other case‘s is therefore very dubious, if not unenforceable in law.

Also, most if not all charging areas are leased to the Charging Company’s and therefore the Parking Management Company‘s may actually have no legal or implicit jurisdiction over said such charging areas and spaces/s. Plus the Charging Company’s might actually have agreed commercially sensitive contracts with the land owners for 24 hours unfettered access to the charging points.

sorry disagree you are using two different scenarios

a carpark is not a filling station - please explain why the charge point in a car park is magically outside that carpark and to be treated as a filling station.
you might have gone there to that KFC/Morrisons with the intention of only refuelling, and you stay by/in your car the whole time ---- but it does not negate you're in their/their landowners' carpark

BUT
I do agree not enough charge points outside of filling stations have clear signage at the charge point bays.

 

[Brian G]

sorry disagree you are using two different scenarios

a carpark is not a filling station - please explain why the charge point in a car park is magically outside that carpark and to be treated as a filling station.
you might have gone there to that KFC/Morrisons with the intention of only refuelling, and you stay by/in your car the whole time ---- but it does not negate you're in their/their landowners' carpark

BUT
I do agree not enough charge points outside of filling stations have clear signage at the charge point bays.

The argument is that small portion of the car park is usually leased by the charger operator and therefore not part of the car park. There is an implicit right to drive across the car park to reach the space. A parkin ‘fine’ is therefore unenforceable. In some situations that may not be the case but we understand Instavolt have that arrangement.
And then again there was a legal definition of parking and waiting. The distinction being a vehicle left unattended and one where it was attended. It may have had its roots in horse drawn vehicles wherevofvcourse the coachman would often rest the horses between trips.