2023 going out with a bang!!

December has been the biggest month on record for new ultra rapid hub openings. In excess of 500 new connectors commissioned so far this month.





…and some tongue firmly in cheek at the “queues”…(that haven’t eventuated)



Merry Christmas 🎅 🎄

 

Well i drive a 2013 Zoe, so it's very much a thing for me

 

We are doing a trip this week and for the 100 mile return journey I will need a charge. It’s motorway all the way but the best services has 7 chargers only so, yes, I’m anxious.

 

Are you starting with a fully charged battery, only, what's the car if it can't do 100 miles

 

I've only had an EV 2 years, in that time the charging network has changed beyond recognition.

First long journey was 250 miles to Durham. Most chargers were single units, sometimes with two plugs, but the second plug didnt work. The only site we found with multiple chargers was skelton lakes and we had to queue for 30 minutes because every EV in thev area was using it, most of the journey was spent worrying about where we would be able to charge.

Most recent journey 400 miles to Edinburgh. Everywhere we passed had multiple chargers, places we chose to stop always had space, with the exception of Gretna. The difference was we knew that even if a charge stop was busy, a space would be free within 5 minutes or there is another within 20 minutes.

But the biggest worry now isnt range anxiety, it's price anxiety. We need the prices to start coming down.

 

I've only had an EV 2 years, in that time the charging network has changed beyond recognition.

First long journey was 250 miles to Durham. Most chargers were single units, sometimes with two plugs, but the second plug didnt work. The only site we found with multiple chargers was skelton lakes and we had to queue for 30 minutes because every EV in thev area was using it, most of the journey was spent worrying about where we would be able to charge.

Most recent journey 400 miles to Edinburgh. Everywhere we passed had multiple chargers, places we chose to stop always had space, with the exception of Gretna. The difference was we knew that even if a charge stop was busy, a space would be free within 5 minutes or there is another within 20 minutes.

But the biggest worry now isnt range anxiety, it's price anxiety. We need the prices to start coming down.

Totally agree I was going to use one at Belmont in Durham but it was 85p per kW… so I diverted to another which was 74p still too much in my opinion

 

Last month I took the train to Darlington and drove a Zoe 50 back to London that I’d bought for my daughter.

I did absolute zero route planning or anything else prior. The dealer had fully charged, before I collected it, so I just jumped in this little car and drove it until I needed to recharge (just prior to Peterborough) and quite easily found a new-ish ESB rapid to charge at near as it happened a Costa / McDs and had an hour break before I continued on.

It was a bit slower than I’m used too, but still perfectly doable and I didn’t stress or have any range anxiety at any point.

 

6 150’s and two chads just popped up at my local Sainsbury’s. Not helpful for me as it’s close to home but we are a bit of a dead spot on Zapmap. Most of the recent trips I’ve taken I’ve planned something and then ignored it and done something completely random and it’s been fine 😂 still wouldn’t be confident being desperate for a charge at peak times though.

 

I imagine it won't be an issue in a few years if charge points keep cropping up at their current rate of expansion, and range/general infrastructure keeps improving as it is. Seems like they sort of feed off each other.

But as it stands now, yes for an inexperienced EV'er, I'd say range anxiety is still a thing, generally. Until you're able to set off from virtually anywhere to virtually anywhere without having to map out charging stops and think about how busy or reliable a particular location or network is etc etc., we'll not really be fully rid of range anxiety.

I can picture this being resolved in 3-5 years, and then it'll just be us CHAdeMO plug seekers who'll experience anxiety... Unless of course the adapter becomes a fully realised/compliant offering.

 

But as it stands now, yes for an inexperienced EV'er, I'd say range anxiety is still a thing, generally. Until you're able to set off from virtually anywhere to virtually anywhere without having to map out charging stops and think about how busy or reliable a particular location or network is etc etc., we'll not really be fully rid of range anxiety.

For a large part "range anxiety" exists in peoples heads, and is reinforced by the hysterical mass media looking for clicks or views.

As I posted above we have had the largest number of ultra-fast connections go live in any one month. In excess of 500 for December alone. 2023 will go down as the year with the largest expansion in en-route rapid and ultra-rapid connections in the UK and more widely across Europe, by a very large margin.

If I can jump in a car I've never previously driven, with a 50 kWh battery and drive 250 mies with no plans as to charging stops. Then range anxiety definitely isn't a real thing.

P.S. I Had a CHAdeMO to Tesla Type 2 adapter back in 2017. I'm sure if push came to shove Nissan et al could do a similar thing, if little ole Tesla could manage it.

 

except for maybe the Scottish Highlands and West Coast?

Tesla SC in Aberystwyth means I will be driving from Anglesey to Swansea next month. This one is open to non-Tesla EVs, which means most CCS cars can use it.

A few years ago, I simply wouldn't attempt the journey.

 

Tesla SC in Aberystwyth means I will be driving from Anglesey to Swansea next month. This one is open to non-Tesla EVs, which means most CCS cars can use it.

A few years ago, I simply wouldn't attempt the journey.

There are quite a few chargers in mid Wales now but it’s good to know there’s a SC

 

Range anxiety depends on your knowledge of geography and ability to manage risk! And most cars have a range well in excess of the old minis we drove back in the 70s! Of course you could carry a can of petrol but it seems to me that the latest installation of rapid chargers at MSAs in particular make life a lot easier with an EV. On price, I suspect we might see a reduction this year. A post elsewhere on here someone got a business tariff at 20p a kWh and in my usual optimistic view, I believe we will see that come down to near 15p by the end of the year. At which point we should push for the CMA to do a review. With more charging points giving folks confidence to make long journeys overnight the charging points should be covering their overheads better. We should be pushing for 50p a kWh or less! Perhaps Octopus with the Electroverse might be our friends in this respect. I am more than happy to have cheaper charging at off peak times. That makes perfect sense even for me with a 40 kW battery.

 

The question is absurd.

It depends on the car you drive.

I posted a branch of this subject matter; https://www.speakev.com/threads/182166/ .

But the very nature of the assumption of built-in obsolescence into the OP question is really shockingly dreadful from an ecological perspective.

The 'problem', if there is one at all, is people's desire, if not obsession, to own a car they could do without, not the CO2 it emits in production or use.

 

Why an absurd question?
If your car has a lower capacity then surely you would do a bit of planning to identify charging locations?
To my mind the increase in the number of chargers means greater availability and potentially less distance between chargers

 

On our trip South today I need not have worried about charging. At the Moto services, Winchester, there were several 100kW chargers and none in use. Simple to use, very fast, but does anybody else think that 79p a unit is a bit excessive?

 

Simple to use, very fast, but does anybody else think that 79p a unit is a bit excessive?

Maybe, maybe not. Installation costs and routine servicing/maintenance need to be paid for somehow. Perhaps this will always be the price we pay (no pun intended) for charging away from home. I do see competition bringing prices down in the future to Tesla levels, which are far more palatable.

 

What is the significance of V2 V3 & V4 SCs?

 

most none Tesla cars take up 2 bays charging in a V3. the V4s are much better and allow most (all?) cars to charge in 1 bay only

personally if I were in charge of Tesla charging I would only let other cars charge at V4s unless the other charge points had had cable extensions. (and I say that as an ipace and i3 owner)

 

Bigmike & simcity thanks for the info

 

EV charging anxiety: My epic search for a socket

EV charging anxiety: My epic search for a socket

Electric car sales have surged but provision of charging points hasn’t caught up. Matt Rudd braves unreliable apps and warring motorists in an attempt to stay charged on the long road to Dartmoor

www.thetimes.co.uk

So brave. Matt Rudd, you're my hero 🦸

 

I do get what you mean to a certain extent and of course its not viable for everybody to have a larger capacity EV - but would you have an EV at all if you were going to be doing regular journeys which pushed the available range to its limit?

 

Many people do, yes.

Short range cars still exist, that was my point. They are largely what their owners can afford (else they'd buy something else). Some people have budgets where they don't have a wide latitude of choice.

I'd have probably gone along with your thesis that 'range anxiety' doesn't really exist for new BEVs over 40kWh. I think the generalisation is too broad to apply to older smaller BEVs. That was all of my meaning, not more than that.

I might have 'over-dramatised' the issue I was raising in my first post, apologies if that is the case, but there seems to be a never ending view of BEV technology as 'what's coming tomorrow' rather than 'what's been made already'. People only ever talk about what is to come, as if all the previous BEVs can be scrapped off as irrelevant now.

 

I am content with a 40 kW MG, 300 miles in one day no problem and although we recharged 3 times only one was a 15 minute stop that we didn’t spend doing something else. Since then that same journey would be so much easier with the new charging spots on the M4 route to Wales!
What does make a big difference is that you can now have the confidence that that more of the chargers will work and that you have clusters closer together so that if you think you need a plan B it isn’t with a 30 mile reserve. That makes a big difference. Yes there are a few deserts still, mid Wales isn’t too well served but From Land’s End to Perth or Dover to Edinburgh no problem at all. Even making a journey through the night wouldn’t cause a worry, but I would carry a small torch! The only reason to need a big battery is if you make long business trips with tight schedules. By right people should not drive for more than about 2.5 hours without a break. Even a 10 minute stop can add 30 miles on my car, newer would add 60.

 

Fully agree that charger availability is a huge enabler. I can manage stopping and do it at a lower SoC, as long as I know there's going to be a working charger when I do. Currently, with my 40 LEAF, I tend to try to get to a charger with a good 20% still in reserve just in case (especially if I'm at a point with only 2 units).

 

Long journeys are perfectly feasible in all but the coldest weather... Just lifting your foot off the accelerator a little helps a lot. I have a hankering for a trip to the very north of Scotland. Seven hundred miles from Hampshire, near Winchester. And looking at it the first stop I would want to make is on the M42 near the NEC, at 130 miles. There is a Tesco at the junction before the NEC with a garden centre at its side that is installing chargers... perfect. Then I think I could make it to J27 where MFG have a hub at Crow Orchard, then there are chargers just before Carlisle and then Abington. 390 miles with stops at 124, 230. 330 and 390. Even in my old Passat I would have wanted at least 2 stops in 400 miles. The question is how long do I have to wait to charge? I would guess the battery would be warmish and should charge at 40-60 kW up to ~ 80%. I would guess charging would take 35 minutes at each stop, and there are so many alternatives that just pulling over for a break where there is a charger for 10 minutes would add enough to remove any range anxiety. Assuming you can fill at Abington then I think you can make Perth, then Inverness and Thurso, 300 miles with 3 stops! And the 2nd day would be easy motoring and you could have a choice of some more scenic stops I am sure. Though I gather the charger in Tain is best avoided because they installed in the wrong part of the car park for cars to get close to it!

 

In UK the price of domestic pre payment meters is strictly controlled under government legislation.

Could a public car charger where you pre pay on contactless card be interpreted as a pre payment meter? Anyone with legal knowledge think this could be a legal loophole. Just thinking out of the box or is it the red wine destroying my brain cells.

 

I think it would be a stretch. I suspect there is a definition of a pre payment meter being that which supplies power to a domestic property….

 

Of course range anxiety is still a thing. By definition, planning where you are going to stop and having two backup charging locations just in case the first one is defective or occupied is pretty much the definition of range anxiety.

It’s not changed at all, we’ve just normalised it.

 

Yes, guess you’re right, nothing has changed since I used to drive my mini from London to Blackpool on a wintry Friday night in the 60s. Garages closed at 9:00 pm and no supermarkets of course, you only needed a delay caused by a lorry overturned on a roundabout and thousands of cans of custard spewing yellow everywhere, to hold you up when you are down to the needle at nil! That was a night to remember! But what has changed in the last 12 months is that there are now so many EV chargers. I was surprised today to see a Fastned in Andover. That the chargers are recognisable from the road when you aren’t looking for one just as you see petrol stations.
For those not driving in the 60s, the M1 and the M6 weren’t joined up. And the services weren’t as frequent. The mini had a 4.5 gallon tank which got you 150 miles. CF an EV with a range of 150 miles. And filling stations weren’t self service, they were repair shops with petrol, some started to sell ciggies and chocolate but not many. Consequently you needed to be on a real trunk route to find fuel at night. People didn’t really travel overnight and if they did they carried extra fuel. You could buy Gerry Cans ex WD for a couple of quid and petrol was 4/10d, mind a pint was 1/10 in Blackpool and two bob in London.

 

I don’t disagree that the public chargers are fleecing us. Except I rarely use one, so it doesn’t affect me. And I don’t get the tax breaks being retired and fast approaching my 80s. There is a problem with the business model of public charging. 80% of the power consumed by EV drivers comes out of their own pump. You could install a tank and buy diesel by the 1,000 litres, farmers do, but the cost to deliver such a small amount for a fuel dealer would not make sense. For electricity the opposite is the problem. My house has always had an electricity supply and being built where gas wasn’t available we have a 100amp cut out. So a 7 kW charger can run at the same time as the 7kW hob and the heat pump etc. The public chargers have to have a fat supply installed, a 50 kW charger will run off a 3 phase 100 amp on each phase just about. Cluster 12 chargers at 300 kW and you are talking serious money for a 4,000 kva supply. Iirc, MSAs were only getting 8,000 kva supplies, in the present upgrades. Diversity of demand would allow for 80 chargers, with some throttling at peak times. Until chargers are being used for much of the day and at maximum power the overheads of interest on the capital cost, the back office and repairs and depreciation on the chargers makes it expensive. But it is absolutely true that we were paying 35p a kWh 4 years ago, the price of power for business wasn’t subsidised like domestic fuel and so they hiked their prices up to ~80p when business was paying over 50p a kWh. We now see business tariffs at about 20p so we ought to see a reduction in the cost of charging. Somewhere around 50p a kWh might be fair. You can do what I did and write to the CMA pointing out the issue. I can’t remember which thread a copy of my letter is posted on. But I made exactly the point that there appears to be no competition and the market isn’t working.

 

Agreed. If you rarely charge away from home (and I think this is a LOT of people) then you shouldn’t ever have any range anxiety.

And while the costs of installing the public charging network are high, there are also massive tax breaks for the companies involved and it is genuinely scandalous that we’re being ripped off at the chargers as we are. There really isn’t any good reason why Tesla at Thetford (open to everyone) is generally 33p/kWh and Tesla South Mimms is 55p/kWh other than one is much busier than the other and they are pricing it so people don’t go there (positive view) or that they are price-gouging at the busy location. Even at Motorway services you don’t see a 50% increase in the price of diesel. I will write to the CMA because there does seem to be some odd symmetry to the pricing.

And I really don’t think my next car will be a BEV considering it will almost certainly be over £40K and luxury car tax alone will push the lease costs up by a minimum of £33/month. Thats 5% on what I’m paying now. And the BIK will go up etc. etc. and it will still add 40-60 minutes for charging on any decent length journey. The bubble had to burst but it’s too soon. The cars are still too expensive and the infrastructure isn’t there yet, and what is there is generally too expensive.

 

I wonder if it's possible labour will change it when they get in. Mind you am not convinced about Starmers green credentials either. he was not supportive about the ULEZ in London for instance.
tax dodges on EVs seems unfair to me..... or should I say lobsided. if I could get a company car on lease I get so many really compelling discounts however for those of us who have tovbuy our cars outright it is mostly stick and not much carrot.
I bought 2nd hand at 2.5 years old . it was half price from new so seemed a good deal. all cars depreciate but in 7 months mine has gone down by £9000 . all the cheap home charging in the world can't offset £9000 depreciation in 7 months (£35k to £26k).. where as my mate bought a similar specced ICE car (albeit BMW not Jag). percentage wide that has held its price far more and cost less as well (and had a starting new price £25k less as well)

ok I get free road tax.... but that ends next year. sure EVs probably do need to be taxed but why are EVs getting retrospectively hit but all ICE cars are not. generally car tax goes forward but not backwards .

ok I get to charge from home and that is the one carrot we get...... but many people can't and yet they still are encouraged to buy EVs...... if a person can't charge at home, and can't get these sweet tax dodging leases then where is the incentive for them?.

I love EVs they are just a better car imo but untill purchase costs and running costs sort themselves out there will be (justifiably) concerns about them. range anxiety is the least of my anxieties personally.
(and that isn't even mentioning the lack of skilled repair people)

 

I dont want to sound like some crazy leftie socialist (tho as i get older i seem to be going that way) but it would probably be better (like all vital services) if the charging network was a nationalised effort, with all running costs AND all profits coming from and going to the government - or council depending on how it was done - coffers.

I don't believe in 'nationalisation' at all, but that does not mean a 'national' profit-making agency can't be set up that is backed by the Government as its major founding investor, and guided by the Gov as a principle shareholder at board level.

In fact, I have previously posted this,

Donald's proposal for a national charging...

I posted this over on leaftalk in this thread; So how do EV drivers want to pay for their public charging options? By Time or Kwh? Seems perennially topical so figure I might as well reproduce a copy here;- 1) There are two fundamental charge-types, and I believe it's essential to get a...

www.speakev.com

and the OP ended with ....

"

It is my belief that this would cost several hundred million to implement, and in return would be met by at least a million EV sold that will be doing long distance trips within 5 years once the general public has finally been shown in no uncertain terms that such long distance trips in EVs are not only possible, but have become the norm. Therefore, I see it as self-funding within those 5 years but is a project that does need to be progressed by Gov due to scale. It would inevitably be contracted out to various infrastructure companies, but it'd be Gov and be part of the Highways Agency's portfolio.

Key take-aways:-

• No piddling around with a few chargers here and there, long distance network needs to be managed, planned, and designed from the start with high volume capacity.
• Relatively high initial charger use costs for very occasional users [but still matching 'average petrol car' costs] but a cap on total yearly spend.
• You can't treat en-route charging and destination charging equally. They are two different beasts and financially confusing the two will end in a damned big muddle, viz. the current scenario.

I think it is no co-incidence whatsoever that Tesla have arrived at pretty much the same model. This is because they are not answerable to multi-committees with lots of conflicting views. They charge £2,500 for lifetime charging (what's that, around 20 years? so that's around my figure too) and they install stand-alone hard standing dedicated to long-distance trips and ignore destination charging.
"

I think this is all still true, since 2015 when I posted that, if not presciently describing today's situation.

 

Yes range anxiety does exist. But it is the range from the charger to the seller of the overpriced coffee that is now the major concern.
And why do new Ionity locations keep turning up next to Starbucks, the company who don't have a clue about decent coffee. 😞
At least Ionity Carlisle Starbucks based chargers are only 100 yards from Costa. 😃

 

I think a large part of the problem is the press, especially certain ones. every day I am bombarded with clickbait about how EVs don't work, the batteries are full of rare earth metals or minerals (the former not true the latter true sometimes but does not have to be) , or how they are killing the planet more than a new ICE ever would

range anxiety is an issue but it is m ade worse by the sensationalist press who gleefully report on any times when things do go wrong and conveniently forget the 99% of times where things go well, as well as the harm done by the fossil fuel industry.

if there is a car fire the instant reports are it's an EV (later then proven not to be but that is never reported as loudly)
people at my work still tell me the battery in my EV will be junk after 5 years.... 10 years use would literally be a miracle , and yet some how hydrogen or green petrol is cleaner than electric..

i was appalled when Rowan Atkinson an educated engineer iirc came up with all that disproven nonsense about them.

yes EVs are not perfect. they are certainly not green (like your feet or a bike) but it is so frustrating so I guess those who have an EV with real world experience do tend to push back enthusiastically and are (overly perhaps ) defensive. .
I wonder if half of the public scepticism of them would exist if "news" outlets actually reported fairly on them (both positively AND negatively)