I have had Solar Panels since early 2012.

No issues with them fitted above the roof tiles, never even heard of those kind of comments before.

I get the full Feed in Tariff. New installs do get these benefits.

So unless you can consume your generated electricity, car charging, battery storage, washing machines etc, you may not get the full benefit of your expenditure.

I have Sanyo Hybrid Panels, I'm not familiar with the products you mentioned.

 

I have had Solar Panels since early 2012.

Similar experience here (summer 2013). I'm retired so around during the day and have a diverter to put surplus into my hot water tank. I've also been doing a bit of EV charging with the granny charger and controlling manually. Without the FIT ("New installs do NOT get these benefits" typo there) and being out you may find the economics don't work or require a battery.

 

Vast majority of solar panels are retro fit, without issue.

google solar panels and pigeons, there are solutions on the market, wire/mesh/reflective tape. Depending on chosen bracket the panels can sit close enough to roof for it not to be an issue.

You may want to research solaredge optimisers, which is like an individual inverter per panel.
Solaredge also offer an inverter with built in ev charger in one unit.

 

You may want to research solaredge optimisers, which is like an individual inverter per panel.
Solaredge also offer an inverter with built in ev charger in one unit.

they are called micro inverters... basically there are different ways to wire multiple solar panels (in parallel or series)... they have pros and cons to the methods, but they are then limitted by the lowest output panel in the string. This means you could have one panel shaded and that so all the panels suffer and they can only generate as much as the smallest one!

Using micro inverters, each panel is independant, so shading on one panel doesnt bring the string down.
10 years ago this was an expensive method and people couldnt afford it, but like everything, the costs have come down and now it is really the best way to install panels for 90% of people. Way more efficient and much less energy loss. (solar tiles work this way... lots of roof tiles with microinverters!)

Are panels worth the expense?... I've had mine 6 years.
Im on a feed in tarif which is ok, but not as good as friends who installed before me. So I've just about paid them off now but only because I give nothing back to the grid. (smart meter shows the export to be sub 50kW over last 12 months.) I use everything!!!

When we can do car to grid, this will be really good for me to offset the daytime stored power and the nighttime cheap rate... then I would have more hours of zero peak time grid with solar, offset with increased use of cheap rate grid. (using octpus go!)

If I was designing the setup again, I would put on more panels, use micro inverters and add a battery so I can offset the useage.

 

Check with surveyor if the concerns are based on local specific circumstances.

 

If your intending to charge the cars from solar you will need a seriously big battery and stacks of panels, You are unlikely to get better than 85% on the round trip from roof to battery to car. For car charging a good overnight tariff is better I think and a lot cheaper than a battery.
I am retired so we can charge the car in daytime from the roof and use a battery to supply the house (Not charge the car!) overnight. There is a diverter to heat water on surplus power and then any excess is sold as SEG (smart export guarantee ) for a few pence - this is not FIT as the units are too recent.
In winter the battery charges at 5p unit on octopus go and that more or less does for the day with some solar assistance.

You need bird mesh, we have it and I recommend its done. Our neighbour has an older system and did not have it fitted, it recently cost a fair amount to remove the pigeon nests, dead birds and then fit mesh!
Ours (and the neighbours) have never cause roof leaks as it happens.

 

Really happy with our set up. Initial 4.2 kWp solar install in 2019. Only got slight feed in tariff. South facing roof. Really large electricity generation. Decided to fit more panels mid 2020 after DNO approval. What has made it fantastic is the fitting of a storage battery to save a huge amount of what we generate during the day to use of an evening or top up one of our EVs.
Last month (sunny but cold April 2021) we used just 14 kWh of electricity! Before the solar panels and battery and with 2 EVs would have been several hundred kWh or over 1000 kWh.
Panels +/- battery represent a far better investment than putting your money in an ISA with terrible returns at present.
Electricity prices will only ever increase over time. Plus it is generally green energy and those power stations are having to emit that bit less CO2 etc.
Should have done the install in 2011/12 when we first moved in to our house as would have been laughing all the way to the bank with the much larger feed in tariff in those days.

 

You need a Smart meter to get SEG, arrange before progressing. SEG is at 5p/u with So Energy. I would not borrow to buy, but great if you have the cash. Philosophically, I have generated more solar PV than my Ioniq has used, not at the same time or place, but still more than used. Now a second roof with more, we just need a lot more solar when the wind is low and during the summer.

 

The incentive to fit solar panels isn't really there any more. The generous feed in tariff which basically kick-started a domestic solar installation industry including more than a few cowboys got pulled so early adopters were the ones who benefited.

So let's dispel the myths. Panels on a roof is fine. No issues with birds nest, but keeping them clear of bird **** is a problem. I live in Scotland so four seasons in one day keeps them clean. This is on a house with Marley roof tiles. Speaking of debris, as my wife feeds the blighters (the birds not the installers), then clearing gutters is a routine chore!

Ideally your house sits south facing to maximise sunlight. Now for us, it wasn't about how much electricity we'd make or dreams of 'going off-grid'. Invest in battery storage. We fitted a 4 kW system (16 panels) and 5kWh battery bank. My wife comes home after work and plugs in her i3 decimating the energy it accumulated and stored, but hey that's life!

Don't get hung up on figures and end up like a parody of the Good Life. What is the bank or building society giving you for your hard earned cash, nowt! It is interesting as we get into summer to see the batteries full and everything else electrically powered is for free!

 

So let's dispel the myths. Panels on a roof is fine. No issues with birds nest....

This is no myth. I've had my panels for 9 years now and no problems, until last year. The flying rats moved in.

Pigeons are very social creatures and they like panels they can get under because it is warmer in the winter. It cost several hundred pounds to get them evicted and the mesh put around the edge. Ensure that this is done from the start and is part of your quote.

 

We have 14 panels fitted on two elevations (South and West facing) since 2012. They are fitted on top of pantiles and sure enough we experienced birds nesting (Jackdaws) and associated debris. Fairly shortly after that we had the area under the panels cleared which required scaffolding but not panel removal and at the same time had wire mesh fitted as a bird guard. A fairly expensive rectification.
Since then the Jackdaws have remained persistent trying to remove the fixings usually early morning but have not gained access. Our fairly modest array averages a yield if 2600kW per year but we enjoy a fairly decent FIT rate. Although we are home most days it is only over the last 2 or 3 years with a PHEV and Zappi that we have been able to more effectively minimise export during spring and summer. Now with the Octopus Go tariff we plan a full EV that can charge at night on the cheaper tariff and eco + charge during the day, summer days anyway such as you get in the North East

 

To continue this.
4Kw of Solar on a south facing roof - I just couldn't fit anymore
I also get the nice lucrative FIT payments - the panels etc owe me nothing now
I am a high electricity user on Smart Meters
I have 28kWh of batteries on two inverters as a storage bank. This just about covers my usual daily usage. If I do a lot of cooking then I hope for some sun to top up (generally makes 25th Dec a poor day from an electrical PoV)
I also have an EV - eNiro 64kWh and a 7kW EVSE (Zappi)

"My wife comes home after work and plugs in her i3 decimating the energy it accumulated and stored, but hey that's life! "
You really want to stop that from happening. You get a loss when putting the power into the house batteries, a loss taking it out and another loss putting it into the car.

I use Octopus Go - charge the car AND the house batteries. 00:30-04:30 at 5p / unit. My average is 5.5p/unit over the month.
I prevent the car from charging at any time other than the 5p time - but the zappi will also charge if there is a surplus AND the batteries are full - which doesn't happen that often

On the bird front when I had the panels I did not have any preventative measures in place. It took a few years but the blighters moved in. I think there was a hotel, a funeral parlour (there was a dead bird under the panels) and a nightclub up there. I now have a protective strip all around the panels and get peace and quiet again. My suggestion is that if you get panels, get the installer to put bird prevention measures in place at the same time. Its a lot cheaper when the scaffolding is already up there

 

Calling @Trevor Larkum !!!

 

Thanks for the heads-up! Unfortunately I'm so busy quoting for solar installs that I can't spend much time on the forum. Things are going mad, with a lot of kit now out of stock until the end of July, and getting worse.

My suggestion is that if you get panels, get the installer to put bird prevention measures in place at the same time. Its a lot cheaper when the scaffolding is already up there

This. An increasing proportion of our customers are having this added. Although it will cost from about £500 on the day, if you have to add it later you will also have to pay £700+ for scaffolding on top.
I've blogged about the different options here: Solar Panel Bird Control Systems

As a general point I am more upbeat about batteries than a lot of people on this forum. Pound for pound they don't payback as fast as a solar install for people who are at home all day, but:

if you are not going to be home then you will need a battery to have any benefit of the solar panels.

Exactly. You can also reduce your payback by charging them overnight on cheap electricity, particularly in the winter when the solar generation dips. I also like the fact that my house keeps going in a power cut (with additional hardware) and am happy to pay a premium for that capability.

The most important advice is to maximise the panels in an install because there are big fixed costs (particularly scaffolding and an electrician - typically paid for the day). Roughly speaking we can install a 4kW system for about £5k, but an 8kW system would only be about £8k.

 

I have had PV for 10yrs without problems.

You do not say why you consider fitting PV. To save money or just be green?

The problem you have is that you have no means of sensibly consuming the power during the day. Batts would help but they in themselves dont make economic sense at the moment. What would help would be if your house used a HP as this could absorb the power during the day.

Economically by far the best idea is to use TOU tariff Octopus Go and charge cars at night, heat HW if you have a tank, washing etc and even storage heaters can be used.

Otherwise being green is just that but just remember that you get very little power in winter.

 

One initial question. Speaking recently to a retired surveyor, he was negative about panels that are an 'after fit' on a roof sitting above the roof rather than in it. His concerns were bird nests, debris building up under the panels and also impacting the 'water tightness' of the roof after been fitted. Anyone have thoughts, comments on this?

Agree, my concern is that the water tightness depends on the tiles under the panels so if you get a leak from a cracked tile or through the mountings then it needs to panels removing go repair and could get expensive.

I liked the roof integrated panels, where the tiles are removed and panels become part of the roof, there's a few manufactures, some a dedicated roofing panels, others are mounting kits to turn the panel into a large tile. Wholesale prices for the components looks pretty affordable, not much over regular panels.

Be interested if anyone has had these fitted and how the got on.

Viridian Clearline

Clearline fusion Roof Integrated Solar PV

Roof integrated solar PV panels that replace tiles and slates for better aesthetics

www.viridiansolar.co.uk

GSE Roof integrated mounting kits

GSE Integration

Roof Integrated products for optimal aesthetics by GSE Integration. Benefits: MCS012 certified Quick and easy to install (a 3kW System installed in 3 hours) Flexible installation: achieve any configuration landscape, portrait, u-shape, pyramid... on any roof type Lightweight and easy to...

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My system was installed last September so I don't get the government incentives that were available to early adopters. I have 4.4kW of LG panels, and I specified bird protection, which is wire mesh all around the perimeter of the array. I've seen how the panels are fixed to the roof and don't anticipate any problems with leaks. I haven't heard, either on forums such as this or elsewhere, that leaky roofs caused by solar arrays is a problem.

My inverter is a 4.2kW Growatt unit which works fine. It's a budget unit I believe, but it does its job. I don't need to interact with it, which is just as well: configuring it is a pain in the neck.

If your roof is unshaded all day, a budget inverter such as the Growatt should be fine. But if any of your panels will be shaded for any part of the day you'd be better off with a SolarEdge system or micro-inverters. With a simple string inverter, if one panel is generating, say, 70% of what it should because it's partially shaded, then you'll only get 70% output from the whole array. But with SolarEdge or micro-inverters, you'll get 70% out of the shaded panel, but the other panels will still deliver 100%.

With no government assistance (except that the VAT on the installation will be 5% not 20%) it's still possible to make an economic case for solar panels, with a payback time of 7-10 years. It's less economically viable to have battery storage, but it seemed to me that a battery is a key part of the system. So I have a Tesla Powerwall. It stores 13.5kWh and £/kWh it was competitive with other systems at the time. The Tesla system is an elegant solution, with limited options for manual control, but it does its thing very intelligently. And I use the app on my phone constantly to monitor the whole system - generation, consumption, storage. The Growatt inverter doesn't have a phone app, just a web interface, and I'm not interested in what little it can tell me. The Tesla app on the other hand tells me everything I need to know, simply and elegantly.

In summer I'm getting paid by my electricity provider (I'm selling them more than I'm buying from them). My panels are generating 4kW quite a lot of the time. On a cloudy day I only get about 1kw out of them, and in those horrid dark winter days I was getting 0.3kW or thereabouts.

I have a Zappi chargepoint, so I can charge my car with excess solar instead of selling it back to the grid. Or I can charge the car overnight on Octopus GO 5p tariff if I decide to switch from Agile. But Octopus won't let you have an export tariff together with GO. It's a bit disheartening charging the car 'normally' - a 13.5kWh full Powerwall charge soon disappears into the maw of my car's 58kWh battery. The Zappi has a good app like the Tesla, so if I didn't have a Tesla battery I could use the Zappi app for similar results.

I have future plans: I intend to replace our gas cooker with an electric one, and install a hot water tank, immersion heaters, and an Eddi solar diverter to use excess solar to heat our hot water. Then we should only be using gas in the winter months, for heating the house. Replacing our gas combi boiler with something greener looks like being more of a challenge...

 

if you are not going to be home then you will need a battery to have any benefit of the solar panels.

 

"he was negative about panels that are an 'after fit' on a roof sitting above the roof rather than in it ". Bear in mind that embedding the panels IN the roof is generally accepted that the panels get hotter because they are harder to cool. There is an impact on the efficiency but for aesthetics they are the way forward.

 

The slope of my roof is such that nobody under 8' tall is able to see them ! They've been in position for 10 years now and we've never had a leak in the tiles underneath them - nor indeed would I expect there to have been; arguably the panels are shielding the tiles from the (outside !) chance of large hailstones or bits falling off aircraft from causing damage.

As to 'aesthetics', words fail me ! How many people ever gaze up at their tiles and admire them ?

 

Nothing a 0.22 and a good eye can't solve.

Unrelated question - do you like pigeon pie?

 

I've had panels since 2012 and this year is the first year I've had pigeons trying to nest under them.

In terms of leaks - panels are mounted on rails which are screwed to brackets which go up behind the tiles; tiles don't get holes drilled in to them or anything. So long as your roof is sound and your panels are installed properly, it won't leak.

 

Fantastic replies from everyone. Really appreciate all the information and so much to think about. Thank you very much!

At present we would be looking at 8 panels (8 x 390 = 3,120 system?). I am thinking even with a battery, would it be worth it for the cars? Thinking maybe a fewer panels that could feed the 'background' electric usage in the house.

Definitely would get the netting following my reading here!

 

At present we would be looking at 8 panels (8 x 390 = 3,120 system?). I am thinking even with a battery, would it be worth it for the cars? Thinking maybe a fewer panels that could feed the 'background' electric usage in the house.

Probably not worth it for that size of panel. If you can use some of the energy to heat hot water, then that's a good way of using the energy.

What rate can you sell to the grid vs the cheapest night time rate?

 

Solar panels are cost-effective provided you can use the power you generate, by having a solar diverter for an immersion heater etc. If you can't, don't bother. Adding a battery will only dig you a deeper hole financially. Their cost means they're not financially viable right now.
With regard to your proposed solar array, are you aware that with a South-facing system you're only going to see full capacity generated between about 11:00 & 13:00 from May to August? Most of the time you'll be generating a few hundred watts.
My above comments are based on experience. I don't know about Octopus tariffs though, but they may sway you towards a battery system to save the solar-generated power. The only thing is, you'd be paying to keep it ticking over for 6 months of the year when there's not much solar generation.

 

Adding a battery will only dig you a deeper hole financially. Their cost means they're not financially viable right now.

This, unfortunately is quite true.

I'm currently using about 75% solar energy, with the rest drawn from the grid. When my battery system gets up and running that should allow me to get damn close to 100% self powered.

However the logical approach to charging EVs is to get a cheap overnight rate and charge then, and feed excess solar back into the grid.

The marginal rate for me if I did this works out at less than 2p per kWh. So much cheaper than trying to use a battery to do it will all the limitations that come with that.

Although as a general rule I'd try and get as many panels as possible on your roof. The big problem in the UK is cloud cover - nothing wrong with the actual sun.

 

This thread has some good advice. We have 25 solar panels built in to our roof (they are the roof covering on one side - no slates underneath) and these can generate around 6 kW or so under the right conditions. We manage to use about half of the electricity they produce, for heating hot water, cooling the house during the summer and a small amount for charging the cars (it is far from easy to use much solar generation for car charging). We end up exporting around 3 MWh a year to the grid, because we cannot easily use it, mainly because most of the generation is at times when we just don't need any power.

Winter generation is generally rubbish, and doesn't do much at all. For around 4 months we get virtually no usable power from the system, and what we do get barely offsets the 200W to 400W house baseload, and does nothing else that's of much use.

Batteries just don't make economic sense at all, even as a DIY job at the very lowest price I can find. I'd love to install them, and have already put the cabling in and built a shed to house them, but I know that they will die of old age before they have saved their purchase price. I still may do it, though, as not everything we do needs to be because we can save money, there are other good reasons, not least of which is the fun aspect of having a new project.

 

How often do you get a power cut. Its a very expensive once a year feature.
Now if you were getting cuts every day - that's a whole different ballgame

 

I've just had solar panels fitted. 12 x Longi 360w (4.3kW) and a GivEnergy 3.6kW hybrid inverter with 8.2kWh battery.

Cost was just under £8K but they added a Zappi for another £880. We are in a bungalow so scaffolding may be more for a house.

Really pleased with the system so far, the amount of power we pull from the grid is negligible. FiTs are no good these days, so it will help charge the car and hot water (when I get an Eddi)

If you're in the south west, I can recommend Solar PV | Ecobubl Ltd | Warminster They were £1.5K cheaper than another quote I got.

This was a sunny day last week. Blue is 25kW generated, red is from the grid.

 

Seems you got a good deal, Garycat. I know prices are continuing to fall, but I paid a lot more than that nine months ago for my similar system. And yes, I'm in the South West, didn't know about Ecobubl. Will keep them in mind for when I install my heat pump...

 

Had my panels since 2015 now. They started as a 4kW nominal system, 16x250W panels, facing due East at shallow 70's roof angle. Thx to the direction they maxed out at 3kW, so I've added 3 more larger & South-facing panels on garden shed to make it up to 4kW max. These extras don't get the FIT though.

Being East facing is actually rather useful, as the moment the sun's up I get about 2kW before I know it (at 7:15 this morning), and that's heating the immersion tank via Solic 2000 diverter from the word go. As noted above, South facing gives you max kWh out, but in a rather hard-to-manage burst around mid-day. Splitting the panels for an East-West setup would be ideal for me, and would supply a far more usable steady output for longer than pure South-facing, but wife won't dream of that as the West 1/2 of roof is visible from the road!

Being retired I can trickle charge a lot, so that's super valuable to me.
Over a year I generate 4000 kWh from the panels, house import from the grid has dropped from previous 4000/year to 3000/year, and once I'm back to doing 12k miles p.a. I'm expecting that to use the remaining 3000 units, so in effect I'm getting 100% green EVing, by using the Grid as my long-term battery. I just have to pay the regular price for reimporting it back when needed in winter.

 

Over a year I generate 4000 kWh from the panels, house import from the grid has dropped from previous 4000/year to 3000/year, and once I'm back to doing 12k miles p.a. I'm expecting that to use the remaining 3000 units, so in effect I'm getting 100% green EVing, by using the Grid as my long-term battery. I just have to pay the regular price for reimporting it back when needed in winter.

Only if you have a backwards running capable meter i would suggest. How often will the car be able to be charged when there is also the PV available. Of course if you have 2 EVs or an ICE then it becomes more possible.

If one has 2 EVs that can use the PV and TOU tariff like Octopus GO for winter car charging then that reduces the financial case for batts i believe.

 

I've got 3.8kW of solar and a house battery. I've shifted most of my usage to E7, I've reduced my daytime grid usage by 90 percent so I now only use about 200 units a year of daytime. Works well, but it is a bit of a hobby!

 

I can beleive that! You will need to monitor and tweak things to optimise the setup.
Its a feedback loop to get the best out of the system!