[Siraff]

that's got to be overkill given that most of us have willingly parted with a not inconsiderable amount of money for something with only around 15% of that range!

That's what most average diesel saloons can offer. I agree it's overkill but you never hear of anyone's journey being held up because they had too much range left.

 

[Ready to charge]

Mercedes estimates battery density will increase on average by 15% per year, meaning it doubles every 5 years. Tesla estimates 5% per year, meaning it doubles every 15 years. That said - it is possible that some time between 2020 and 2030 electric cars could actually have more range than ICEs, in addition to all of their other benefits.

 

[donald]

Mercedes estimates battery density will increase on average by 15% per year, meaning it doubles every 5 years. Tesla estimates 5% per year, meaning it doubles every 15 years. That said - it is possible that some time between 2020 and 2030 electric cars could actually have more range than ICEs, in addition to all of their other benefits.

Sheer speculation. There is nothing that is likely to be a geometric increase of specifications inherent in the physics of electro-chemical cells. It will be a series of quantum steps, if at all.

 

[Ready to charge]

Yes, but the point is that it is within the realm of possibility that this will happen one day. Whether it is closer to 2023 or 2030 I don´t know but one day electric cars could have even longer range than ICE cars. I think what Tesla was saying with their 5% is that they can make slight improvements by tweaking their battery design. Mercedes, on the other hand, is taking into account new materials like lithium sulphur and graphene. I think that eventually there will be a major breakthrough but in the meantime lithium ion is being improved.

 

[Hairy Leafer]

Will they ever reach that kind of range though? Sure battery energy density will increase, but can it ever match the phenomenal energy density of petrol and/or diesel? I doubt it.

Sure you can increase range by making physically bigger batteries especially as costs decrease, but that doesn’t come without compromises from an engineering perspective
Be honest, if you had the choice between a genuine 200 mile car with significantly better performance, more cabin space, more passenger space the same (or better) ride and build quality and significantly less cost. Can you truly honestly say that you would go for the inferior more expensive 400-600 mile car?

I for one definitely wouldn’t and all things considered I don’t think that 99% of the paying public would either

 

[Ready to charge]

It may seem unthinkable now, but Tesla are already half way there at almot 300 miles. It would only take doubling energy density once to make it possible and there are many different new types of batteries being developed that expect to achieve that and beyond.

I'd imagine when the time comes there will be options of 400/500/600 miles range.

 

[donald]

It may seem unthinkable now, but Tesla are already half way there at almot 300 miles. It would only take doubling energy density once to make it possible

They'd only have to double the energy density of petrol to keep up with that, then!!

 

[Sandy]

They'd only have to double the energy density of petrol to keep up with that, then!!

Wouldn't that tesla have a similar wheel base as a Routemaster though?

 

[Ready to charge]

The energy density of petrol is what is it and will never increase, whereas the energy density of batteries is increasing as the technology gets better. At the same time, batteries are also getting lighter and cheaper. So a 2023 Tesla Model S could conceivably have a range of 600 miles with exactly the same price, weight and performance.

 

[donald]

The energy density of petrol is what is it and will never increase, whereas the energy density of batteries is increasing as the technology gets better. At the same time, batteries are also getting lighter and cheaper. So a 2023 Tesla Model S could conceivably have a range of 600 miles with exactly the same price, weight and performance.

I am sure that it might, not that it will. If it is possible I imagine that way will be found. The question is whether it is possible, safely, reliably and at competitive cost.

 

[Siraff]

Next time you want to know just how energy dense petrol or diesel is, pop to the garage and put a gallon in a can. Including the can it's around 6kg and you can see the size.
Now think of it as that being 60 miles. Then try to pick up a 60 mile battery pack (hint - it will be well over 200kg).
Batteries are improving but they have a very long way to go to be the equal, let alone better on density.

 

[gzoom]

Next time you want to know just how energy dense petrol or diesel is, pop to the garage and put a gallon in a can. Including the can it's around 6kg and you can see the size.
Now think of it as that being 60 miles. Then try to pick up a 60 mile battery pack (hint - it will be well over 200kg).
Batteries are improving but they have a very long way to go to be the equal, let alone better on density.

One thing going EV has made me realise is just how much energy we are wasting using by burning oil for such trivial tasks as getting from A to B.

 

[Siraff]

One thing going EV has made me realise is just how much energy we are wasting using by burning oil for such trivial tasks as getting from A to B.

It does make you think, doesn't it? I always imagine a history where people didn't like the smell of cars burning fuel and the ev took off instead. I wonder how different it would have been?

 

[halcyonrichard]

One thing going EV has made me realise is just how much energy we are wasting using by burning oil for such trivial tasks as getting from A to B.

Good video by Kryton Elon Musk said just use the electricity used to refine fuel in electric cars and you don't need the oil at all.

Even more bizarre was the fact of how much electricity was required to refine oil to get diesel or petrol :-

The 6 kWh electricity to refine gasoline would drive an electric car the same distance as a gasser?

 

[Siraff]

Good video by Kryton Elon Musk said just use the electricity used to refine fuel in electric cars and you don't need the oil at all.

Even more bizarre was the fact of how much electricity was required to refine oil to get diesel or petrol :-

The 6 kWh electricity to refine gasoline would drive an electric car the same distance as a gasser?

View attachment 12414

That's all well and good but it doesn't change the fact you currently need a massive battery to store the energy vs the relatively tiny fuel tank.

 

[HandyAndy]

... if you had the choice between a genuine 200 mile car with significantly better performance, more cabin space, more passenger space the same (or better) ride and build quality and significantly less cost. Can you truly honestly say that you would go for the inferior more expensive 400-600 mile car?...

My typical journeys (into& around town, &back) are about 10 miles-ish, and I might do these twice a week. With my battery range of appx 45 miles I don't need to re-charge between trips, and with the squally weather these last few days I'm actually on the look-out for (rare) decent sunny-spells so I can maximise use of my solar panel output. If my phev were a GTE, I be having to recharge fully for every trip. So I've realised that it's actually a help to have a battery that's considerably larger than technically necessary, as the extra flexibility means I can reduce my running costs quite a lot.

Roll forwards 10 years when I can afford a second-hand Tesla with 1000 mile range, or a swisher one with 500 mile range, I might well prefer the 1000-mile battery one as I'd be able to fill-up slowly on solar/economy-7 over a week or two, until I have enough range to take me on one of my long cross-France-in-one-day trips comfortably - 700 miles in one go.

I think there will definitely be a market for Bevs with "huge" range capability; right now I just might consider one with 500 mile range (if it existed & I could afford it) - until then I'm staying with the best Phev you can get over here.

 

[donald]

A half of the energy for refining is heat, so it is not primary electrical energy that could have been used to charge a battery.

This old chestnut keeps coming up time after time.

It's not a bad point to discuss the electrical consumptions of petrol refining, but it amounts to about 10 EV miles worth of electricity to generate 50 petrol miles worth of petrol.

Don't forget also that all the other stuff you would get from the +gallon of cirude is then all 'free' because you've already accounted for that in the '10 EV miles' figure, i.e. that electrical energy doesn't simply generate a gallon of petrol, it also goes towards generating several more kilos of various hydrocarbon products.

So there's a lot of double accounting in those figures.

 

[Siraff]

A half of the energy for refining is heat, so it is not primary electrical energy that could have been used to charge a battery.

This old chestnut keeps coming up time after time.

It's not a bad point to discuss the electrical consumptions of petrol refining, but it amounts to about 10 EV miles worth of electricity to generate 50 petrol miles worth of petrol.

Don't forget also that all the other stuff you would get from the +gallon of cirude is then all 'free' because you've already accounted for that in the '10 EV miles' figure, i.e. that electrical energy doesn't simply generate a gallon of petrol, it also goes towards generating several more kilos of various hydrocarbon products.

So there's a lot of double accounting in those figures.

Again from an energy and efficiency POV that's great. But we would still need a battery 3x the size of the one in the biggest Tesla to match even a small tank of diesel for mileage - even after the inefficient ice has converted it.
I don't think anyone can dispute that an electric drive car is far more efficient but the reality of carrying that energy around just isn't in it's favour at the moment.
For what it's worth I think there is potential for batteries to have a far greater energy density than fossil fuels because it's more pure and therefore doesn't need to carry the extra density. If/when someone figures out how to contain and carry it without having to attach it to fluid/gel/etc, I can see an ev battery taking a 1000+mile charge that's the size of a small suitcase. That though I think is a long way off.

 

[satronev]

My typical journeys (into& around town, &back) are about 10 miles-ish, and I might do these twice a week. With my battery range of appx 45 miles I don't need to re-charge between trips, and with the squally weather these last few days I'm actually on the look-out for (rare) decent sunny-spells so I can maximise use of my solar panel output. If my phev were a GTE, I be having to recharge fully for every trip. So I've realised that it's actually a help to have a battery that's considerably larger than technically necessary, as the extra flexibility means I can reduce my running costs quite a lot.

Roll forwards 10 years when I can afford a second-hand Tesla with 1000 mile range, or a swisher one with 500 mile range, I might well prefer the 1000-mile battery one as I'd be able to fill-up slowly on solar/economy-7 over a week or two, until I have enough range to take me on one of my long cross-France-in-one-day trips comfortably - 700 miles in one go.

I think there will definitely be a market for Bevs with "huge" range capability; right now I just might consider one with 500 mile range (if it existed & I could afford it) - until then I'm staying with the best Phev you can get over here.

What is the best PHEV? I might want one but, the complexity and extra service cost on top of the initial price of the car is what concerns me most. The best PHEV is actually 2 separate cars; one that is a BEV for most trips and one that is a ICE for the long trips. My BEV can get 124 mpg equivalent or, better and, a Ford Focus can get 42 mpg highway. Now compare that to an over weight PHEV that gets 34 mpg for most of a long trip. If I am going to pay the price of 2 cars, I should get 2 of them. However, I should only drive one car at a time to save energy. On the highway, I am always amazed to see a big RV that gets 5 mpg towing a jeep, two motorcycles, and a boat. All they need to pull behind all that is a Leaf or a Tesla and they would have it all.

 

[Trikkitt]

hen I can afford a second-hand Tesla with 1000 mile range, or a swisher one with 500 mile range,

I doubt you'll get a 1000 mile EV... for the simple reason it isn't needed. 300 mile real world range, charging network as big as the petrol network is now, very fast chargers that can recharge 80% of your capacity in 15 minutes. Most carparks have charging points at all bays. Thats a far more likely scenario than 1000 mile range, and it addresses most peoples concerns / issues. Plus driving for more than 4 hours without a 15 minute break is just dangerous.