CITROËN E-MEHARI

 

I used to be a Citroën enthusiast, although I only ever owned one: a GSA Pallas from 1982-1990. I loved the sound of the engine -- two 2CV engines stuck together in harmony -- the dashboard with its blueprint of the car taking pride of place, and the feeling that I was in a flying saucer because of the castor effect of the engine being almost in front of the front wheels and of course the blissful hydropneumatic suspension.

That was the last hurrah for the marque, although I nursed ambitions of getting a C5 and a C6 at various times for several years later on.

I hear you, the Citroen of today is a pale imitation of the innovative Citroen of long ago, and they have lost my brand loyalty (for new models) a long time ago....However I can't agree the GSA was the last hurrah of the Citroen of old.

My first car was a 77 GS so I know them well as well as all their foibles... We also had a 74 GS and later an 83 GSA in the family which I drove a lot.

I've also owned a CX 2400, and three Xantia's - a 2.0i petrol Auto, and two Xantia V6's - one of which I still have now as the ICE beside my EV. Both my parents at one point had Xantia's as well, so that's 5 Xantia's in the family that I've driven and worked on.

I would argue that the Xantia was the last hurrah of the old Citroen.

Let's look at the scorecard:

The Xantia was the last green blooded LHM Citroen before they switched to orange LDS in the C5.

It was the last Citroen to have mechanical height correctors and a mechanical height override lever instead of electronic height sensors and a computer controlling the height. (The height corrector is identical to and interchangeable with one in a GS in fact!)

It was the last Citroen to use the unique high pressure pump and accumulator driven braking system, with automatic load based brake limiting on the rear brakes, before switching to a boring conventional vaccum servo system in the C5.

It was the last Citroen to have a unified, belt driven hydraulic pump that powered suspension, steering and brakes all on the same hydraulic system, before it was replaced with an (unreliable!) electric pump for suspension only, vacuum brake booster, and (unreliable!) electric power steering on later C5's like the X7.

Back when the Xantia was still fairly new long term Citroen purists thought the XM and Xantia were very conservative designs - and compared to the far out DS, CX and GS I suppose there is some truth to that. And the poverty spec 1.9TD version of the Xantia is hardly a thrilling drive, with a gutless and almost agricultural engine and a clunky gear change.

And the front McPherson strut suspension design is a little bit of a letdown compared to the purity of the double wishbone arms of the CX and GS, however in Hydractive 2 guise it does work remarkably well.

However looked at with another 25 years hindsight I think the Xantia has turned out to be a modern classic, with styling that has held up incredibly well for a design released in 1992. (I'm not so sure about the XM though. ) I still think it looks great and I love the fact that it doesn't look like a typical lardy large arse modern car.

Relatively low to the ground by today's everything trying to be an SUV standards, sharp, clean lines with the right balance of lines and curves, rather than just looking like a balloon that has been inflated... A timeless Bertone design I think.

And high spec variants, like my V6 with Hydractive 2, full leather etc are comfortable, fast, have handling and cornering grip that far exceeds what would be expected of a car that rides so softly literally wafting along, and at the same time are a very practical family car with plenty of seating room for the size of car, fold flat rear seats with lots of luggage room etc, and it is a fantastic mile muncher on the motorway.

So despite mine which I've had for 4 years turning 21 this year at 86k miles, I'm hanging onto it for grim death until it either terminally breaks down or new emissions regulations force it off the road...

Apart from Tesla, there is no modern car after the Xantia that has really peaked my interest. I like EV's obviously, but most are fairly boring at the moment.

Hydractive 2 with its instantaneous switching between soft and firm suspension modes based on driving conditions was a real innovation over older models, and as much as I liked the ride of the GS and CX which were legendary, there is no denying that they were rolly-polly cars that didn't stand a chance of keeping up with a modern car around corners, but the 20+ year old Xantia rides almost as well as the classic Citroen's but can very easily keep up with modern family cars around corners, if not significantly outdo them thanks to the heavy damping and minimal roll when Hydractive's firm mode activates.

And then you have the zero roll Xantia Activa, which is a step up again and will put a lot of modern performance cars to shame around corners even on it's modest 205/60/15 rubber. The UK didn't get the V6 version of the Activa sadly (never made in RHD) but I know a guy who owns an Activa that he converted from 4 pot to V6 and boy that thing is thrilling to the point of scary, even as a passenger...

As much as I loved the GS and CX in their day and I would love to drive one for nostalgia sake, neither one even in perfect condition would make a useful car in today's world as a daily driver, but a Xantia in good condition has a lot of the charm and quirks of older Citroen's like the suspension, but is a perfectly usable daily driver even 25 years later, so is definitely a much more practical, balanced car.

Just my 2c worth.

(Not mine - just grabbed off the internet! Although mine looks much the same in the same colour minus spoiler and with different wheel rims)

 

I hear you, the Citroen of today is a pale imitation of the innovative Citroen of long ago, and they have lost my brand loyalty (for new models) a long time ago....However I can't agree the GSA was the last hurrah of the Citroen of old.

My first car was a 77 GS so I know them well as well as all their foibles... We also had a 74 GS and later an 83 GSA in the family which I drove a lot.

I've also owned a CX 2400, and three Xantia's - a 2.0i petrol Auto, and two Xantia V6's - one of which I still have now as the ICE beside my EV. Both my parents at one point had Xantia's as well, so that's 5 Xantia's in the family that I've driven and worked on.

I would argue that the Xantia was the last hurrah of the old Citroen.

Let's look at the scorecard:

The Xantia was the last green blooded LHM Citroen before they switched to orange LDS in the C5.

It was the last Citroen to have mechanical height correctors and a mechanical height override lever instead of electronic height sensors and a computer controlling the height. (The height corrector is identical to and interchangeable with one in a GS in fact!)

It was the last Citroen to use the unique high pressure pump and accumulator driven braking system, with automatic load based brake limiting on the rear brakes, before switching to a boring conventional vaccum servo system in the C5.

It was the last Citroen to have a unified, belt driven hydraulic pump that powered suspension, steering and brakes all on the same hydraulic system, before it was replaced with an (unreliable!) electric pump for suspension only, vacuum brake booster, and (unreliable!) electric power steering on later C5's like the X7.

Back when the Xantia was still fairly new long term Citroen purists thought the XM and Xantia were very conservative designs - and compared to the far out DS, CX and GS I suppose there is some truth to that. And the poverty spec 1.9TD version of the Xantia is hardly a thrilling drive, with a gutless and almost agricultural engine and a clunky gear change.

And the front McPherson strut suspension design is a little bit of a letdown compared to the purity of the double wishbone arms of the CX and GS, however in Hydractive 2 guise it does work remarkably well.

However looked at with another 25 years hindsight I think the Xantia has turned out to be a modern classic, with styling that has held up incredibly well for a design released in 1992. (I'm not so sure about the XM though. ) I still think it looks great and I love the fact that it doesn't look like a typical lardy large arse modern car.

Relatively low to the ground by today's everything trying to be an SUV standards, sharp, clean lines with the right balance of lines and curves, rather than just looking like a balloon that has been inflated... A timeless Bertone design I think.

And high spec variants, like my V6 with Hydractive 2, full leather etc are comfortable, fast, have handling and cornering grip that far exceeds what would be expected of a car that rides so softly literally wafting along, and at the same time are a very practical family car with plenty of seating room for the size of car, fold flat rear seats with lots of luggage room etc, and it is a fantastic mile muncher on the motorway.

So despite mine which I've had for 4 years turning 21 this year at 86k miles, I'm hanging onto it for grim death until it either terminally breaks down or new emissions regulations force it off the road...

Apart from Tesla, there is no modern car after the Xantia that has really peaked my interest. I like EV's obviously, but most are fairly boring at the moment.

Hydractive 2 with its instantaneous switching between soft and firm suspension modes based on driving conditions was a real innovation over older models, and as much as I liked the ride of the GS and CX which were legendary, there is no denying that they were rolly-polly cars that didn't stand a chance of keeping up with a modern car around corners, but the 20+ year old Xantia rides almost as well as the classic Citroen's but can very easily keep up with modern family cars around corners, if not significantly outdo them thanks to the heavy damping and minimal roll when Hydractive's firm mode activates.

And then you have the zero roll Xantia Activa, which is a step up again and will put a lot of modern performance cars to shame around corners even on it's modest 205/60/15 rubber. The UK didn't get the V6 version of the Activa sadly (never made in RHD) but I know a guy who owns an Activa that he converted from 4 pot to V6 and boy that thing is thrilling to the point of scary, even as a passenger...

As much as I loved the GS and CX in their day and I would love to drive one for nostalgia sake, neither one even in perfect condition would make a useful car in today's world as a daily driver, but a Xantia in good condition has a lot of the charm and quirks of older Citroen's like the suspension, but is a perfectly usable daily driver even 25 years later, so is definitely a much more practical, balanced car.

Just my 2c worth.

View attachment 98273 View attachment 98281

(Not mine - just grabbed off the internet! Although mine looks much the same in the same colour minus spoiler and with different wheel rims)

I'm not going to argue with you. I completely forgot about the Xantia, which as it happens was my aspirational car of choice for a few years until they spoilt the beautiful Bertone looks with the refresh (did it really need that spoiler and the symmetrical badge at the front? They spolit the BX too..). I was clearly using the term the last hurrah loosely because I also left out the CX which was itself my aspirational car until the Xantia came out. My Dad even got one, although sadly he realised that he was really more at home in an XJ6. I still remember his face illuminated by the bright light from the digital speedo, which he never discovered how to turn down..

So sorry for the lapses of memory, although at least it provoked an entertaining and extended essay from yourself!

 

I still miss my CX 2.4 GTi and the GSAs that I used to drive. Driving now I suspect the last Citroën that I shall own - a 2004 1.4 Xsara. Despite the conventional suspension it is a comfortable soft ride that passengers always appreciate on roads full of potholes but of course it does not float like a boat as a real Citroën should.

I have only to take the Xsara (rear wheel steer) out and it tells me what the other car (a LEAF) is badly lacking in terms of handling agility and comfortable ride. I don't miss the 18 mpg in the CX GTi, the notchy gearboxes, or the rust in the CX or GSAs. or the regularity with which repairs were (and still are) needed.

The best of classic Citroëns, quality steel, modern rust proofing and oil seals, and an electric heart, all with Japanese reliability - now that would be some car.

With a little wheel arch bending I put the GSA fronts up to 165s. Yes the GSA would roll in the bends but it had fantastic grip. It was the only car in which because it was so supple I was able to do four wheel drifts with confidence and strong control. You had to push a GSA really hard to discover just how good it was. The oil pump was running too slowly when they introduced the five speed box for economy and unless you drove it hard the cams would quickly wear for lack of lubrication. Likewise corner really hard and you would hear the flat four engine cams run dry for a moment. The Brits would sludge up the engine because they did not drive it hard enough.

 

I remember our BX. You couldnt lose it in a busy car park, we just followed the trail of bits that dropped off it.

 

My parents had an Ami followed by a GS and a GSA. I remember my dad getting an issue of Car magazine, where four of their top ten cars were Citroens. I think it was also the edition where they drove 3 bronze Lamborghinis back from Italy to the UK, which I preferred as a teenager.

We then had a series of Citroens, from a CX2400 estate which I bought from a dodgy East End dealer for £300 to move house. God knows how it got an MOT, as the front light would fall out if you braked too hard, and the exhaust was in two parts, each held together with wire. It was a four-speed manual, but had a bit of poke. I loved the dash, with it's rotating drum speedo and switches for indicators. It also had a switch for town and country horns. It was great for transporting stuff and I only had to fix the suspension once. I sold it to some trainee Sappers, who first of all stuck an anti-personel mine inside, which destroyed the interior. Then they stuck an anti-tank mine underneath it - it's supposed to disable 70-ton tanks, so not much was left of the car. The engine was blown almost 100m away

A BX19RD followed with its massive 65hp diesel engine that was soooo sloooooow. It had the unusual dash, similar to the CX. We traded that in for a BX19GT, which had a better 105hp, but the dash was more conventional, though the indicators were still switches on pods. SWMBO managed to let it catch fire while driving down the motorway.

Our final one was an XM, which had extra suspesion spheres to alter the anti-roll stiffness depending on hard you were driving it. Problem was that it was a 2-litre auto, so it struggled a bit, though it would eventually cruise at 3-figure speeds on the autobahn. It stranded us in the Lake District when one of the hydraulic hoses came off and it dumped its LHM in the middle of nowhere. It didn't look as though there had ever been a clip holding it together, so goodness knows how it lasted that long! You could put a case for it being the last of the weird Citroens

 

last of the weird Citroens

You mean “quirky”. Not a single car journalist other than perhaps LJK Setright considered any article about a Citroën complete without that word, meant pejoratively.

I think they didn’t appreciate things like non-self-cancelling indicators because they were used to all the other boring cars and it was too much mental effort to adjust. But if it’s your only car it becomes the natural way to do it.

 

I had two BX 16v GTi s. They were one of the first post PSA merger products, and were absolutely unbelievably good. I had a 'pure-Citroen' BX immediately prior to that, and despite the arguable loss of 'character', the new PSA Groupe inspired dash and switches were clean, bright, fresh and 'sporty'. The speedo dial was basically the same design and brand as in the Ferrari that belonged to a friend's father!

The only reason it was not a 6.x second 0-60 time was because max speed in 2nd came up at ~56 mph so the extra change lost you a half second. The 0-100 time was around 10 seconds. Peak torque was at 5000rpm, making peak acceleration in top gear at 100mph! Red line just over 7,000 rpm.

It could (and did) reach eye watering speeds (in a time just before/as speeding became public enemy no 1). The gold-plated heat shield foil on the bulkhead was necessary .. things got to glow white hot in there at top speeds (... strange that the all-plastic bonnet did not seem to suffer?!)

As mentioned above, the BX was the penultimate car with the LHM system in which the rear suspension circuit coupled into the rear brakes, so more weight in the back meant higher rearward bias , whilst the brakes on the front couple into the front suspension, acting as an anti-dive system. Genius.

I had one of the first 1988 16v, which was rear-ended by someone in an XR2, so I later bought a 1990 which was a completely sorted car. If I were to be obliged to spend eternity with only one car, and fuel cost/emissions was not a factor, then it would probably be that car. I cannot describe feeling as I do that I sold it for scrap rather than fix some easily fixable worn suspension arm components.

I had a desire to get an XM auto diesel at some stage, but that opportunity never did arise. (A funny quip on that; Citroen made the XM with an auto gearbox as standard. The manual versions were, ex-factory, optional extras. The UK concessionaires specced all their XMs as manuals, then charged UK buyers an 'optional extra' charge to put the spec back to auto!!!)

A friend had a Xantia and it seemed a much smaller car more in tune with a Peugeot layout and feeling. You just have to look at a BX and an XM to see when Citroen finally lost its real influence on the 'important' Citroen-like things.

 

I had two BX 16v GTi s.

The only reason it was not a 6.x second 0-60 time was because max speed in 2nd came up at ~56 mph so the extra change lost you a half second. The 0-100 time was around 10 seconds. Peak torque was at 5000rpm, making peak acceleration in top gear at 100mph! Red line just over 7,000 rpm.

It could (and did) reach eye watering speeds (in a time just before/as speeding became public enemy no 1).

Yes, the BX19 GTi was a very very quick car. Frightening really looking back I recall seeing one that had been 'T boned' on the B pillar (empty passenger seat side thankfully) that was pushed back to the centre line with just a 30 mph impact.

The Mk1 BXs suffered LHM bursts due to rust on the high pressure suspension pipes running under the cabin. Thanks to the salt on UK roads. The Mk2 and Mk3 had a plastic coating added to the pipes and the problem was solved. I had the baby in the UK range the BX14, which was super cheap second-hand because everybody did not want to buy thinking that it was underpowered. In fact it was fine as the car was so light. The French even had a BX11. It was the Peugeot engines that contributed to the success of the BX. It is the same engine in the Xsara which I am still driving. Designed to be low internal friction with mushroom top pistons, having almost no skirt, it for its day was very fuel efficient, reliable and long lasting.

The GSA was a 1.3 but red lined at 7000 rpm. It was slightly fuel starved by under-jetting, in response to the fuel crisis. So if one replaced the 97 main jet (Weber twin choke) with a 100 and adjusted the tappets, it came alive. The torque peak was about 3500 rpm as the second jet opened so it would sprint 50-70 mph in fourth and do it again 70 to 90 mph in fifth. A real driver's car if you revved it hard as it was designed to be driven. At 100 mph (apparently) it was arrow straight and very stable with torque steer and bump steer neutral steering. All out across Europe it could run for hours on the red line at 110 mph. Not bad for a 1.3 engine. I still have the full workshop manuals. I dont't think there is a single GSA left in the UK such was the effect of the tin worm.

 

Yes, the BX19 GTi was a very very quick car.

Just as a geeky footnote;....

For historical completeness, if someone were to ever be looking back for information on these amazing cars, there was a 125bhp GTi 8 valve and a '160bhp' (going on 180) 16 valve.

I recall a Honda advert many years later claiming the best family hatch specific power engine, when the BX 16v had been more so, several years earlier.

Normally aspirated ~100bhp/litre range is not uncommon these days, but in the 80's in a production car expected to do 100k miles, it was spectacular.

In fact, in the age of the 'hot hatchback' the BX 16v was THE fastest normally aspirated hatch and remained that way for years. It was second only to the Lancia Delta Integrale Turbo at the time (if you recall that), which was a bit of a dog's dinner to 'drive'. I use the word lightly as driveability was not a particular positive for the Lancia, but there again the BX 16v was difficult to drive smoothly below 2500rpm too, but entirely practical nonetheless as it revved freely and quietly at light loads to relatively high engine speeds.

This was with static valve timing, so low speed torque wasn't a strong point for it.

It achieved all of this by replacing the GTi's 8v head and replacing it with a magnesium-aluminium 16v head with hydraulic tappets (I was not aware of a faster revving engine at the time with hydraulic tappets), I seem to recall the valves might have even been sodium filled. The pistons were replaced with lightweight fully floating gudgeon pins, and oil cooling jets positioned in the sump to cool the inside of the piston crowns, with a water-heat exchanger oil cooler positioned between the lifter pump and the oil filter, which provided significant cooling at high powers. The compression ratio was 11.5:1 IIRC, and the cam profiles were huge.

The type and condition of the oil was therefore quite important, but it ran so hot that impurities were kept at bay. I had mine up to 140,000 miles and the oil was still so transparent that it was actually difficult to see on the dipstick. The cooling was so well coupled with the head (it had to be) that you would get warmth from the system literally within seconds of starting the engine, yet it could still return surprisingly good fuel economy on long runs at high speed, 40mpg was typical for motorway cruising.

I did keep my eye out for a unicorn BX 16v with air conditioning. It was listed as an option. However, on the BX the space for the compressor was where part of the sump was, so fitting with AC meant losing a good volume of your sump. The GTi 8v came with the option of an auto box, which I did have some interest in but never found one to try, those often came with the [to me] desirable AC.

On the matter of the sump, there was one design flaw and that was no sump baffles. On fast left handers (which was trivially easy to get in to) the oil would move over to one side and the oil lifter pump would start pulling air. Not ideal if you are on high powers. It was OK for UK roundabouts though, being right handed corners, and 4 wheel drifting using the throttle pedal only (it was very neutral steering, slightly tending towards oversteer, which is fun in a FWD!) was par for the course.

The 16v was a PSA creation, the 405 Mi16 also receiving it, but achieving the 0-60 slower than the BX (for reasons I could further bore you with!....). The engine collaboration of Citroen & PSA predated their final merger rebranding so I don't know whether the idea for the 16v engine came from, but it was basically the ultimate extent of taking the old XU9 engine block and screwing the maximum power out of it.

(... you might be able to tell I was a big fan of this engine, and the car it went it .... )

 

I was all set to sell my GSA Pallas for a good price as the bodywork was immaculate after 8 years. My wife actually cried when it was about to go. My dream collapsed when the first buyer to look at it took a pencil and pushed it through an apparently gleaming panel just behind the front wheels. In the end I had to pay someone to take it away

 

There has been a GSA and a CX on eBay recently, both in very good order. I was so tempted by both. Owned three CX's. First one late eighties,£300. Few years later swapped my tatty Capri for a 2400 with the three speed semi auto. And finally £270 for a 2.4 gti. Mad ( sorry quirky) wonderful cars. Very fond memories. Later an XM, which was ok........ current Zoe my 60th car(test 1977). Beetle,£70,Morris Minor £70, Hillman Minx £150 etc and so on.Many French and many others.

 

Lovely to reminisce over classic cars whilst driving the future...

 

America got the DS and the SM before Citroen left in 1974. The didn't get an exemption to the 5mph bumper rule.

People in So Cal bought them. It was a unique luxury car. Like the DS it was just plain odd. In a world of Detroit iron and the occasional BMW, owning one was a statement in itself.

After Citroen left, keeping one running was challenging. The independent mechanic that looked after my father's XKE called the SM a plumber's nightmare. He wouldn't touch one.

 

I had two BX 16v GTi s. They were one of the first post PSA merger products, and were absolutely unbelievably good.

Never picked you as a closet classic Citroen fan, but there you go, you learn something every day...

I had a 'pure-Citroen' BX immediately prior to that, and despite the arguable loss of 'character', the new PSA inspired dash and switches were clean, bright, fresh and 'sporty'. The speedo dial was basically the same design and brand as in the Ferrari that belonged to a friend's father!

This is news to me - Peugeot bought out Citroen in 1974 just before the CX was released in 1975, so I was under the impression the CX was the last Citroen to be designed entirely prior to the PSA merger, and that the BX was the first new model to be designed post PSA.

I don't know a lot about the BX though as its one of the few classic Citroen's I haven't driven or had first hand experience with - for some reason they were quite rare in New Zealand although the GS was very popular as was the Xantia later on, go figure.

As mentioned above, the BX was the penultimate car with the LHM system in which the rear suspension circuit coupled into the rear brakes, so more weight in the back meant higher rearward bias, whilst the brakes on the front couple into the front suspension, acting as an anti-dive system. Genius.

Sorry to get nerdy on you, but I don't believe that's entirely correct.

The rear brakes did indeed run from the rear suspension pressure on all Hydropneumatic Citroen's and thus had automatic load compensation at the rear - if the car was lightly loaded the rear brakes were relatively limited in power so they wouldn't lock up in emergency stops like so many other cars of the era without brake compensators did. (And rear brake compensators were typically reserved for load carrying estates in the 60 through 80's, rarely seen on family sedans)

Load the rear up, the rear suspension pressure goes up proportionally to the increase in weight and the maximum brake pressure to the rear brakes goes up in equal measure allowing the increased grip to be made use of. As you say, Genius. It had the added benefit that the rear suspension was effectively an emergency brake accumulator able to supply the rear brakes even in the event of loss of main system pressure, improving safety and redundancy.

However to my knowledge, no Citroen ever connected the front brake circuit to the front suspension pressure - they always ran the front brakes from the full system pressure of 145-170 bars provided by the pressure regulator and main accumulator sphere.

On some larger models like DS and CX with power steering there was an additional "front brake accumulator" sphere, but all that was was an additional accumulator sphere fed from the main system accumulator sphere via a one way valve. The purpose of it was so that the brake accumulator sphere was reserved entirely for the use of the front brakes, and could not be depleted by the diravi power steering, which was very demanding in terms of volume.

Should the pump fail the power steering would rapidly deplete the main accumulator sphere with use but the brake accumulator would remain pressurised to operate the front brakes for something like 50 hard applications.

Early models without power steering including ID and GS, some BX's had no brake accumulator and just ran the front brakes directly from the main system accumulator which doubled as a front brake accumulator.

Later models with power steering including Xantia, RHD XM and I think, BX with power steering either used a flow diverter valve to split off the output from the pump prior to the pressure regulator for power steering use, or a two output pump like later Xantia's like mine that had 6 pistons in the pump devoted to power steering with a separate output on the pump from the 2 pistons that ran the brakes and suspension. In both cases the main accumulator sphere doubles as the front brake accumulator. None tapped into the front suspension for front brakes.

Anti-dive under braking at the rear was done the same on all Citroen's - they all used trailing arms at the rear, where the rear brake torque applied at the end of the arm would compress the suspension by trying to rotate the trailing arm forwards.

With the brake torque, arm length vs body weight distribution, front rear brake balance etc all factored in they were able to neatly balance the effect of the body throwing forward trying to lift the rear suspension against the rear brake torque trying to compress the suspension.

As well as the centre of gravity of the car throwing forwards during braking, the torque from the front brakes will try to lift the rear suspension as well since the torque is pivoting around the front axle. This had to be counteracted by the torque of the rear brakes trying to push the rear down. In normal conditions this worked almost perfectly with little if any dive from the rear suspension. The rear brake load compensation helped keep it in balance too - when the car was more heavily loaded and had more tendency to throw forwards, the rear brake torque would be higher too thanks to the load compensation, keeping a balance.

However if your rear brakes were not working properly the car would lift up severely at the rear under braking, whilst if the rear brakes were working normally but the front ones were not the car would actually squat down at the rear during braking!

For the front suspension, the GS and CX had anti-dive geometry baked into the front suspension design. This was achieved by tilting the wishbone arm pivot axes significantly forward (lower at the front) so that they were not horizontal. Under hard braking the diving force would be at an angle down towards the front of the car and would be at 90 degrees to the pivoting axis of the tilted arms, thus no net force pushing the suspension either up or down. Clever.

Without this they would have dived a lot at the front since the suspension was so soft.

Unfortunately the McPherson struts on the BX and Xantia don't have this anti-dive feature so they do dive at the front somewhat. Because the rear is so well prevented from lifting compared to some other cars it doesn't really feel like the car is diving since most braking dive in a car is actually the rear lifting up.

This is counteracted somewhat by the tendency of the hydraulic ram in the front McPherson strut to "bind" under high side loads, so when you brake hard you effectively add a lot of extra static friction to the movement of the strut, this considerably reduces any dive effect, however the drawback is the suspension now won't follow road undulations as well, so this is not as good as a true anti-dive geometry like the earlier Citroen's.

In Hydractive 2 Xantia's hard braking instantly switches the suspension to firm mode which dramatically stiffens both springing and damping rates, and does so before even the slightest hint of dive can develop. This extra damping applies at the rear too, further helping with rear anti-dive.

I had one of the first 1988 16v, which was rear-ended by someone in an XR2, so I later bought a 1990 which was a completely sorted car. If I were to be obliged to spend eternity with only one car, and fuel cost/emissions was not a factor, then it would probably be that car. I cannot describe feeling as I do that I sold it for scrap rather than fix some easily fixable worn suspension arm components.

Never got to drive a BX, but I remember my Dad coming back from a long trip (in his GS) to visit a friend some time around 1991 with a handful of glossy brochures for the BX including the 16v, and he had test driven several BX's including the 16v and had been quite impressed with it.

He wanted to get one but at the time they were still brand new so the opportunity never arose, us being paupers.

A friend had a Xantia and it seemed a much smaller car more in tune with a Peugeot layout and feeling. You just have to look at a BX and an XM to see when Citroen finally lost its real influence on the 'important' Citroen-like things.

A Xantia is smaller than an XM, of course. But it is a considerably larger car than a BX.

On paper it looks like the Xantia replaces the BX which replaced the GSA and the XM replaced the CX which replaced the DS. But the size categories don't line up.

The BX is the same size as a GS - both about 1000Kg, but a Xantia is 1300Kg-1496Kg depending on model with even the poverty spec 1.9TD being about 1300Kg. Consider that the CX2400 was only 1300Kg!

In length, interior and cargo space and weight, the Xantia is actually the successor to the CX even though Citroen didn't position it such. The true successor to the BX in size class is the Xsara.

The XM succeeds the CX but is actually a significantly bigger car than either CX or Xantia.

 

In length, interior and cargo space and weight, the Xantia is actually the successor to the CX even though Citroen didn't position it such. The true successor to the BX in size class is the Xsara.

The XM succeeds the CX but is actually a significantly bigger car than either CX or Xantia.

Interesting. So it was not the Xsara but the ZX that was the direct successor to the BX. This was the car that symbolised for me the end of the Citroën adventure. I even wrote an article in Design magazine about it.

Of course this is discounting the observable fact that car models always tend to be larger than the one they replace (viz. VW Golf and Honda Civic inflation), to the extent that eventually another model is created to take their original slot while the biggest ones eventually die off...

 

Wasn't the Xsara just a ZX in a dress..?

 

Yes but the ZX was a beautifully well-engineered and enjoyable thing to drive, whereas in the Xsara everything felt....muted.

Cheap plastic everywhere, the old ZX handling all woolly, the old ZX responsiveness all blunted, bland looks, computers.

The NA XUD was bearable in the ZX, once you got used to it, and the turbocharged version was a rocketship. The Xsara was just a slug.

 

Best of all it was so small and light that two men could literally lift it out of the engine bay and carry it to a bench to work on it without a hoist - I know this because we did exactly that when I had to change a broken clutch fork on mine!

Even better than that. You could 'engine out' working solo without a hoist because the whole of the front of the car just unbolted and then you could just draw the engine forward having strapped it to a trolley. Been there done that.

The GSA was I think the last production car ever made that had a starting handle. I used to use it to do the timing and late one night when the starter electrics gave up in the pouring rain, it did actually start the car and got me home.

As the cars aged the suspension was often not maintained with fresh recharged spheres and clean LHM in a flushed dirt free system. So many GS/GSA drivers never knew just how good the system could be as a consequence.

 

Even better than that. You could 'engine out' working solo without a hoist because the whole of the front of the car just unbolted and then you could just draw the engine forward having strapped it to a trolley. Been there done that.

Yep, had all the front off and on for various jobs I don't know how many times on mine... and mine had a little bit of repaired crash damage at the front so the bolt holes never quite lined up making it a bit of a pain.

But the access around the engine was unparalleled once you had all the front off. It's also great for making people turn their head in puzzlement as you drive down the road on a test drive with no front on the car with just front wings and a bonnet with an engine seemingly hanging in mid air.

The GSA was I think the last production car ever made that had a starting handle. I used to use it to do the timing and late one night when the starter electrics gave up in the pouring rain, it did actually start the car and got me home.

I never had to use the crank handle on mine in anger, but I certainly tried it a few times for the fun of it. Surprisingly easy to use as it would usually start in a quarter of a turn.

 

Just as a geeky footnote;....

For historical completeness, if someone were to ever be looking back for information on these amazing cars, there was a 125bhp GTi 8 valve and a '160bhp' (going on 180) 16 valve.

...
The 16v was a PSA creation, the 405 Mi16 also receiving it, but achieving the 0-60 slower than the BX (for reasons I could further bore you with!....). The engine collaboration of Citroen & PSA predated their final merger so I don't know whether the idea for the 16v engine came from, but it was basically the ultimate extent of taking the old XUD engine block and screwing the maximum power out of it.

(... you might be able to tell I was a big fan of this engine, and the car it went it .... )

I had a 406 Mi16 and was also a massive fan of that engine. The 405 also had great handling.
A friend sold it to me by hooning it round a roundabout and once I'd scraped my face off the side window my wallet was out. Unusually for the day it had ABS system which alas was the eventual cause of the visit to scrap heaven.

 

Never picked you as a closet classic Citroen fan, but there you go, you learn something every day...

It wasn't a classic back then!

But for the hydraulic ride and great engineering, what's not to like. Especially linked to that engine.

Peugeot bought out Citroen in 1974 just before the CX was released in 1975, so I was under the impression the CX was the last Citroen to be designed entirely prior to the PSA merger, and that the BX was the first new model to be designed post PSA.

I think this is one of those things I got wrong before, forgot, and have just got it wrong again! Sorry! It was the 'rebranding' exercise they did in the 80's, culminating in a name change in 91. I will amend my post for fear of creating a myth.

Sorry to get nerdy on you, but I don't believe that's entirely correct....., no Citroen ever connected the front brake circuit to the front suspension pressure - they always ran the front brakes from the full system pressure of 145-170 bars provided by the pressure regulator and main accumulator sphere.

On some larger models like DS and CX with power steering there was an additional "front brake accumulator" sphere, but all that was was an additional accumulator sphere fed from the main system accumulator sphere via a one way valve.

Again, thanks for the correction. Funnily enough, it was something I was told a long time ago, I have just repeated it, and now with 30 more years engineering experience I realise it couldn't have worked like that. Braking performance requires an immediate response not a time-averaged behaviour as would be possible to the rear configuration with steady weight load. So it's clearly nonsense now I think about it!!!

I will make the amendments.

 

It wasn't a classic back then

Classic Citroëns were always classics even when they were new...!

 

The previous generation C4 Cactus was an attempt to get back some of what Citroen once had.

They must have got it wrong (again) because the new C4 Cactus has all but lost the air bumps.

Bland looking car in my opinion. They've added hydraulic shock absorber mounts. Perhaps no more than a market ing attempt. We'll see.

 

The previous generation C4 Cactus was an attempt to get back some of what Citroen once had.

They must have got it wrong (again) because the new C4 Cactus has all but lost the air bumps.

Bland looking car in my opinion. They've added hydraulic shock absorber mounts. Perhaps no more than a market ing attempt. We'll see.

View attachment 98513

I see they’ve made a feature of the jacking points...

 

I had a diesel BX once. Lovely suspension and it could have pulled a tank, but I could have built a whole new car with the replacement parts I bought for it. Would have saved a fortune if I’d followed @Mark Cornwall round that car park.

 

Yes but the ZX was a beautifully well-engineered and enjoyable thing to drive, whereas in the Xsara everything felt....muted.

Cheap plastic everywhere, the old ZX handling all woolly, the old ZX responsiveness all blunted, bland looks, computers.

The NA XUD was bearable in the ZX, once you got used to it, and the turbocharged version was a rocketship. The Xsara was just a slug.

Horses for courses. The ZX did not last long after production ceased. They soon disappeared off the roads confirming their very light short life construction like the AX. Plenty of old Xsara's still clocking up the miles - a much longer lasting car in my view with good quality steel, a rigid stiff frame, good soundproofing and plenty of corrosion protection along with oil based paint. With a CAN bus replacing most of a heavy one wire per circuit wiring harness, air bags and fuel injection the Xsara was a big improvement. Unlike the XM the electrical connectors were done right.

The 'Top Gear' review panned it and that is often repeated by folks who never owned or drove one. The Top Gear review was a great help as it increased the discount buying new and make the car a great deal. However real costs were average once one added all the subsequent garage repair trips. The engine range was wide so you could have 'pocket rocket' if you wanted it. However the Xsara had the usual problems of French electrics and a hunger for replacement parts in the secondary systems at an alarming rate. I still drive my second Xsara a baby 2004 1.4 petrol Xsara (45 mpg in the real world) that had sat in a field for two years before being sold as new. The exhaust went very quickly in three years, but I am still (11 years on) after using the replacement with genuine parts. The hard bit is that the VED is now £185 a year (still a C6 would be £540!) . The interior of my cloth 2004 Xsara is still like new and much better than my 64 Acenta LEAF which is not wearing at all well for exactly the same type of use. Last time I put a pair of new tires on it, the whole workshop came out to look at the interior, they could not believe an old car could look so good inside and still be original. Everything still works except remote locking and the ac has run the compressor bearing so it is usually left off. If I could take the best of the Xsara and the best of the LEAF by turning the Xsara into an EV with battery thermal management it would be my nearly perfect car at sub C seg size. The Xsara with TLC and modest annual mileage has been long lasting - no chance of that with the LEAF even driving just 4000 miles a year because the resultant battery decay rate is 1% per 1000 miles. No more EV Nissans for me until the battery has a thermal management system and lasts longer in time with light use. My case that the Xsara was an under appreciated car rests. Thank you for reading.

 

I'm sure Mike would convert it to EV for you. It would be a unique

 

The idea has crossed my mind. However Citroen CX EV is the dream car, simpler to do because the lack of electronics.

It would be unique to have an Xsara EV because in my case the Xsara is not longer quite its original shape at the front and rear. OK on MOT this year but next year's stricter MOT on deformation might be terminal.

PS I have though about buying a scrap Xsara with a blown engine but original 'unmodified' bodywork and using mine for parts. Most diesel Xsaras now smoke so they will be off the road at the next MOT since any smoke is now a fail. The petrol engine in mine at 88k is still excellent and emissions are well inside limits. A custom EV where you can update the battery tech as you chose has a lot of merit. The Xsara rear seats would have to go in order to have space for the battery.

 

Personally I'd love an electric Audi A2...!

 

That would be nice. They were great cars - again under appreciated.

 

They had much in common with Citroëns such as the GS and DS that use body panels hung on a skeleton frame -- and the Rover 2000 come to that. I've always felt that this produces exceptionally satisfying designs. It gives them an almost architectural quality.

 

Not for nothing was the Rover 2000 known as the Solihull Citroen in design circles.

 

Not much mention has been made of the C6, which continued the Hydractive suspension on until it ceases production in 2012. It was meant to sell 20,000 a year, but they never produced more than a fraction of that. There's one lives on the road near me. It's a striking car, more like a CX than more recent cars.

 

The C5 X7 had a version of Hydractive suspension that was very similar to and based on the system in the C6 but only missing the Amvar continuously variable damping control, so when the C5 X7 was phased out in 2017 it was the last Citroen to use a form of Hydractive/Hydropneumatic suspension.

I've actually been for a ride in a C6 and I'm afraid to say I wasn't very impressed. Maybe the car I saw wasn't working right (seems unlikely when it was owned by a fastidious Citroen nut) but I found the ride very wallowy and floaty with very poor body control - not at all like exquisite balance between ride and handling with just the perfect amount of damping in a Hydractive 2 Xantia or XM.

 

Not much mention has been made of the C6, which continued the Hydractive suspension on until it ceases production in 2012. It was meant to sell 20,000 a year, but they never produced more than a fraction of that. There's one lives on the road near me. It's a striking car, more like a CX than more recent cars.

The very last of the Citroens that could be described as classic due to the use of LHM for suspension would be be the C5 Exclusive with Hydroactive 3 which was on sale in the UK until 2016. The C6 certainly looked like an updated CX.

Near me there is a specialist UK engineering and design firm that make suspension testing systems for the worlds car makers. They are the best, even the Germans come to buy the test rigs and driving systems. There used to be several Xantias and one rather battered C6 in the company car park. The engineers knew what was the world's best car suspension system.

 

The very last of the Citroens that could be described as classic due to the use of LHM for suspension would be be the C5 Exclusive with Hydroactive 3 which was on sale in the UK until 2016.

Sorry to be a pedant but no C5 ever used LHM! They were all orange LDS which is a fully synthetic oil, vs LHM+ which was only semi-synthetic. Aside from that and the colour they weren't much different in properties though and although not recommended could be confused without causing damage to seals etc.

The Xantia and XM were the last to use green LHM.