Wow.

Maybe they should have bought Tesla when they had a chance.

 

At least VW owners can look forward to Tesla build quality going forward then! Oh, hang on…

Is this signalling a headlong rush to outsource all car manufacture to China?

I know that VW already have factories in China, they should have a good understanding of the pros and cons of that.

I wonder if it’s the battery supply/cost issue that has them spooked?

 

It takes time for VW to attach all the batteries to monkeys for testing.

If they could just stop with the monkeys they'd have plenty of time

 

It takes time for VW to attach all the batteries to monkeys for testing.

If they could just stop with the monkeys they'd have plenty of time

Oh good, the VW haters have turned up good and early…

 

As a lay person it would certainly appear that Tesla caught all the major car manufactuers napping - arguably they tried to milk ICE for as long as they could before switching, left it too long and were caught napping

That being said, I am sure the brands name (VW etc) will continue to give them enough weight with some buyers that they hang on - they seem to have survived the influx of all the much cheaper eastern competitors for example

 

As a lay person it would certainly appear that Tesla caught all the major car manufactuers napping - arguably they tried to milk ICE for as long as they could before switching, left it too long and were caught napping

This. Sometimes it feels like there's not a single safety, environmental or fuel economy improvement come about from spontaneous internal development within the car industry. No, every single improvement has had to be prised out of them kicking and screaming (and heavily lobbying governments) by legislation.

They homogenised to the point where any differentiation was pretty much seen as career-ending, and lo and behold they'll pay the price now. (Hopefully.)

No, the car industry has kept selling the same old stuff, year on year, with only minor tweaks here and there, and gets all uppity when anyone suggests for a moment they could do better.

 

Hey, he didn't mention the Nazis, so you got off lightly. 🤣

 

Right now, Tesla really doesn't "get" European cars, I suspect. Even the Model Y is still a pretty large car in terms of best selling European models. That may change with the long awaited smaller Tesla (given up guessing what they are going to call it), but in the meantime companies like VW have got an opportunity to maintain a market share if they can produce cars like the ID.3, and perhaps slightly smaller hatchback models, at a lower price. I rather think that the greatest threat to the German auto industry from Tesla will be to the likes of BMW and Mercedes, rather than VW, although clearly Tesla are competing directly with Audi. Tesla's main issue will be getting their build quality, together with NVR, to match that of most German manufacturers. If they can sort that (and there's every sign that they are working on it) then my guess is that they will give the likes of Audi and BMW a good kicking.

Just before I sold my Model 3 I got the feeling that many of those buying Model 3's were moving from BMWs and Audi's, perhaps those who had perhaps seen what looked to be a pretty ordinary looking saloon car leave their performance BMW's and Audi's standing at the lights. The giveaway were all the new Model 3 owners looking for stuff like lowering kits and different wheels and tyres, plus carbon fibre stuff, etc, pretty much the same sort of topics that come up all the time on the performance Audi and BMW forums.

 

Right now, Tesla really doesn't "get" European cars, I suspect. Even the Model Y is still a pretty large car in terms of best selling European models. That may change with the long awaited smaller Tesla (given up guessing what they are going to call it)

I apologise for this...but I very much fear we can expect a model 6 and model 9 very soon, given previous form 🤦‍♂️

 

Did it really take Diess this long, with Giga Berlin being built on his doorstep, to realise what any interested unblinkered observer of the motor industry had worked out ages ago that Tesla will eat VW's lunch? If both Tesla and VW hit their planned battery production targets then by 2030 Tesla's EV business will be 6 times larger than VW's EV business. Incompetence, arrogance or denial which is it?

 

The one thing to keep in mind though is Tesla only have to focus on EV's. They don't have to split any resources to anything else, whereas VW have to keep pumping out those ICE vehicles

 

Might be about to get a kicking for this, but if you want the latest tech then yeah you get a Tesla, but if you don't care about assists then you'd pick something else right?

Personal preference here but I don't like the look of any of the Tesla models so far, money no object, i prefer the styling of the EV6.

 

It always seems a false comparison to me id3 vs M3... they are chalk and cheese in the EV market...

My iD3 cost less than £24k (life pro - 2nd cheapest ) - a base M3 is £42k...

 

It always seems a false comparison to me id3 vs M3... they are chalk and cheese in the EV market...

My iD3 cost less than £24k (life pro - 2nd cheapest ) - a base M3 is £42k...

I had it narrowed down to a Tesla Model 3 SR+ or a VW ID.4 when I was car shopping a couple months ago. Wife and I test drove both back-to-back, and we instantly agreed the Model 3 was the clear winner, despite the online talk about the superior quality of the ID.4. These two cars have the same sticker price in the US, though I could've gotten a hefty tax break on the VW. And in the 1,000 miles I've put on my Model 3 since then, I've been nothing but pleased with its quality. I'm not a Tesla fanboy, and I wanted to want the ID.4 because it would've saved me a wad of money. But the driving experience was just so much better in the Tesla.

 

Good insightful article here:

Will German Automakers market share continue to shrink? - Fully Charged Show

Alex Voigt looks at why the German Automakers market share is shrinking and what could be done to improve this in his brand new blog.

fullycharged.show

VAG always had low profit margins of about 2 to 3%, while Toyota has over 10%. China is going to dominate the BEV market and the only one that can challenge them is Tesla.

VAG left it too late. The once mighty German auto industry is on the cusp of a downward curve. Expect they will look to the EU to provide grants for 'green' auto development. The French will kick up at that.

 

Tesla have been steadily reducing the number of parts that need bolting and clipping together. Large singe cast front and back, single cable loom, combined heat pump for both battery and cabin. The level of integration is on another level to existing car makers so they will need to move fast to compete.

The advantage other car makers have is Tesla physically cannot keep up with demand, which gives other manufacturers time to compete.

 

Tesla don't have a back catalogue of OEM parts that have to be used in future cars. Thus they can produce cleaner more intergrated sub-systems that are cheaper to produce and simpler to assemble. Look at the printed circuit board count supporting a processor in a typical car. It is typically 10 to 20. In a Model 3 it is three big boards centre, left and right. Reduces connector count as well and that improves reliability when done right. But the Chinese can do this as well.

 

Having a smaller number of larger components can make it quicker (and possibly) cheaper to build - but can also make it very expensive to repair at a later date... how this might impact residuals in the future etc...

Growing up in the 80's German cars were always tainted by "their spare parts cost a fortune though"... EV reliability etc will offset this of course, but if a failed speaker connection means a complete loom replacement (devils advocate for example)....

 

I think that you can overdo the streamlining of production. These huge castings, for example must make accident repairs difficult. Do you have to disassemble half the car to replace a damaged casting?

Back in the day, my son worked for Ford on vehicle development. One important factor was ease of repair as it keeps the insurance premiums down. Can't imagine such factors have been forgotten by everyone.

 

It is well known that FORDs are designed to be repaired. Fix Or Repair Daily.

 

Model 3s are 10 a penny here in the North Midlands. I don't think I've ever seen an electric Kona, ever. Odd niro and odd soul EVs. Model 3s outnumber them all.

I even saw the electric unicorn that is a Honda E driving around.

 

See loads of M3 and MX near us.

Which is why having the Ioniq 5 will be a bit unique.

 

I suspect this forum over-estimates how much most people spend on cars. The £40,000 plus range isn't the main market. It's going to be the competition at the £20k-£30k level which will lead to winners and losers - Corsa vs Fiesta or Golf vs Focus.

Does it matter who wins between Tesla or Lexus or Polestar? Most of the country will be choosing EVs between Kia or VW or Ford.

 

Or MG

 

I agree on the last point,
The market is now shifting and the smaller and private market is picking up. For most in this bracket Tesla are outside the price range and the focus will be on value for money, which means making sure you get the government grant.

 

The BIG market share is going to be the car that offers decent range for sub £20k. I reckon Renault could do the Zoe for that if they really wanted to. The Dacia Spring is going to be interesting, but I suspect not quite have the range to keep people happy.

 

Nobody is paying £40k+. They're all paying X per month. This completely distorts car costs.

 

Er... you know when you pay X per month, you end up paying £40k over the lifetime of the car?

 

Very few people actually do this.

 

Absolutely everyone does this. It's simple maths.

 

Keep the car until it's paid off?

Please provide the stats if you have them.

 

Ok... let's just pretend nobody buys cars any more.

What's fair is the monthly payment on PCP (for most people) is the key figure. Unsurprisingly the more expensive the car, the higher the monthly payments unless it's some sort of non-depreciating unicorn.

I reckon, based on nothing much, the magic figure is £250p/m. You can get a nice, brand new FIesta for that if you put £2500 down.

 

That's numberwang

 

For now, yes. What will happen if they build a smaller, German designed & made hatchback in a few years? (let's guess 2025) Tesla probably has a stronger appeal to the younger generation than VW does, so VW will need to be (remain) cheaper.