As I read this just now, a chap from the RAC on the Today programme said that this idea of providing TV to watch is vital to the partial autonomy stages of self driving.

If the system is going to need to hand back control to the driver, it needs to be sure that he has not fallen asleep. So it gives him TV to watch!!!

God help us!!

I will continue to drive my car myself until there's a system that allows me to get in the back and read my magazine until we arrive. Or sleep if I want to.

 

It’s already here. It’s called a taxi.

 

odd news report today about the government updating highway code (in future) to allow watching of TV in the car if the car is ‘self driving’ - initially in controlled situations like a motorway in congested situations.

No mobile phone use - suggestion being because the car can shut the screen off if it needs your attention? Also this sounds like limited self driving so you need to be ready to take control - but they still suggest the insurance company is liable if you’re in self drive mode which I think would need level 3 at least? So that’d be more like the ‘can drive itself and hand back control with reasonble notice‘ around 30 seconds, like approaching a junction, but needs to be able to handle other situations itself.

How far off do we think this might be? Some manufacturers have tech that can do this already I think but may be US limited as they need to have mapped locations (thinking bluecruise and I think Merc have something similar).

I wonder if this might lead to them relaxing other limitations - like the auto lane change and smart summon range on current Teslas vs what they’re allowed to do in the US?

I think this kind of change to the law is inevitable but I strongly believe that we are a few years away yet from widespread level 3 making it to market. Yes, it looks like the tech is getting there but it isn't just about the tech. A lot of other things much be in place before it can be let loose on the road... the main one I see is liability.

Level 3 may need to be geofenced to motorways only (no side roads) and additional roadside tech might be required to allow activation of Level 3 functionality to prevent its use elsewhere.

Level 4 & 5 are more than 10 years away IMO whatever Elon Musk and Google say. The tech challenges are still huge and the legislation and liability issues are yet to be addressed. It will be a huge challenge and not one that can be done quickly if we are to maintain safety.

The way I believe level 4 will proceed is via car to car communications. The artificial intelligence that is being developed is getting there but personally, I don't believe that it will ever have sufficient competence without there being some comms between nearby cars. Car to car networks allow for each car to "talk" to its neighbors and to decide as a collective what the best course of action for each car should be. Obviously this is a huge leap from the independent systems of today but if our aim is for level 5 autonomy then I believe that car to car communication is the only way we are likely to achieve it. Eventually, I could see car to car networks morphing into car to infrastructure networks... imagine not only your car drives itself but it knows when traffic lights will turn green in advance so it can adjust speed to arrive when they are green... or it knows of delays up ahead and schedules a diversion... but not necessarily the obvious one because it knows of the traffic levels on each route and can pick the best route. The possibilities are endless but decades away IMO.

All very exciting but it may not happen in my lifetime unfortunately.

 

And will this car to car system communicate with pedestrians and cyclists too? Will we all need to have cars in order to venture out on the road? Has my right to drive my flock of sheep along a public highway already disappeared?

Maybe the fully autonomous air taxis will take over first. They should be OK just talking to one and other. Birds should be able to look out for themselves.

 

Clearly the media has focussed on the "watch TC and films" headline but the main aspects are:

1. It is only the use of Automated Lane Keeping System (AKLS)
2. Up to a maximum speed of 37mph (60kph)

See: What is Automated Lane Keeping System (ALKS)?

In my opinion, this is not as widespread as the headline would suggest. But for those on the M25 crawl, it might be useful.

I would expect that all manufacturers will need to submit their systems to the regulatory authorities to get approval.

 

Clearly the media has focussed on the "watch TC and films" headline but the main aspects are:

1. It is only the use of Automated Lane Keeping System (AKLS)
2. Up to a maximum speed of 37mph (60kph)

See: What is Automated Lane Keeping System (ALKS)?

In my opinion, this is not as widespread as the headline would suggest. But for those on the M25 crawl, it might be useful.

I would expect that all manufacturers will need to submit their systems to the regulatory authorities to get approval.

I thought we were going back to imperial measurements. Shouldn’t it be 40mph with appropriate rounding.

 

Am I the only one who sometimes falls asleep watching a film, not a big film fan.

I also need reading glasses to look at screens in the car, one of the reasons I hate the move away from knobs and buttons. Will the systems allow time to change glasses without risking losing the pther pair in the footwell?

Half the white lines on the roads are worn, missing or covered in mud etc. others a over painted at road works etc. what will that do for lane keeping?

Paul said that cyclist and pedestrians are more predictable. That is not my experience, both as a car driver and a pedestrian. Haven’t had a car step of the pavement in front of me recently or wobbly about while going slowly.

Motorways may be more predictable, if you can stop the odd idiot cutting you up, but hopefully traffic will normallt be going at over 37mph.

 

Paul said that cyclist and pedestrians are more predictable. That is not my experience, both as a car driver and a pedestrian. Haven’t had a car step of the pavement in front of me recently or wobbly about while going slowly.

They are more predictable in that they move more slowly restricting the space around them which the car needs to consider. Yes, pedestrians will step off curbs, yes cyclists will swerve to avoid a manhole, but the distance they are likely to move over any period is small due to their low speed so the car can make allowances for them more easily.

 

For now, declaring that a Tesla has autopilot is enough to get a little discount on insurance. If the new law insists that insurers will be liable if a self driving car crashes, I wonder if the insurance companies will charge more for cars with autopilot/self driving.

 

The propsal is about partial autonomy up to 37mph with driver intervention when required.

How far can a car travel at 37mph in the time it will take for the car to issue an alert and the driver to react? (Partial autonomy?) Hitting a pedestrian or cyclist at 37mph would have far greater consequences than hitng a car.

Eventually a fully autonomous system on properly designed and maintained roads may be wonderful. I struggle to see how a mix of partial autonomy, human controlled vehicles and pedestrians on poorly engineered and maintained roads is ever going to be safe.

For now I think agree to differ is the best thing for the thread, so I will shut up.

 

Soula I agree with you. I think the transition to autonomy must happen. Ultimately it will make the roads safer and reduce congestion. But it is this transition period that I fear for. How do we get from Level 1, where the driver is (or should be!) always in control of the car and where liability is crystal clear, to Level 3 where the lines of responsibility of who controls the car and liability in the event of an accident are blurred without it becoming a complete mess?

This is my main reason for why I believe the transition to Level 3 will be tricky but feasible (there are already some Level 3 capable cars with limited autonomy permitted) but the transition to Level 4 very difficult indeed. It will be a huge leap and not only is the tech not quite there yet but the other issues of insurance, liability, the highways Act and various other issues will all need to be properly address first.

I see widespread Level 3 still many years away and a decade or probably more for Level 4. Level 5 may not come in my lifetime IMO (I am 62).

 

With a level 3 system where the manufacturer is liable, if the car hits something it’s literally not your problem - same as if you were in an Uber that had a mishap.

If the manufacturer still wants the driver to be liable, don’t buy that car!

 

It's been a while since your post, but I wanted to offer some insight. Some manufacturers already have tech that could handle this, but it’s mostly limited to mapped locations in the US.

Also ~20 companies in China also offering autonomous taxi services.

 

I was reading some of the level 2 & 3 descriptions and they are very close. So much so that the recent Tesla FSD 12.5.1 capability seems to have reached the the level 3 threshold. I assume they would need the regulatory approval to reach that level.

Tesla setting up their own insurance service must of course have been in anticipation of the liability issue. Though I'd be happy to use the service anyway as they discount based on your driving standard.

 

odd news report today about the government updating highway code (in future) to allow watching of TV in the car if the car is ‘self driving’ - initially in controlled situations like a motorway in congested situations.

No mobile phone use - suggestion being because the car can shut the screen off if it needs your attention? Also this sounds like limited self driving so you need to be ready to take control - but they still suggest the insurance company is liable if you’re in self drive mode which I think would need level 3 at least? So that’d be more like the ‘can drive itself and hand back control with reasonble notice‘ around 30 seconds, like approaching a junction, but needs to be able to handle other situations itself.

How far off do we think this might be? Some manufacturers have tech that can do this already I think but may be US limited as they need to have mapped locations (thinking bluecruise and I think Merc have something similar).

I wonder if this might lead to them relaxing other limitations - like the auto lane change and smart summon range on current Teslas vs what they’re allowed to do in the US?

Years ago I saw Mercs display movies on the main media console in standing traffic in central London.

What we really need is swivel chairs for drivers and a coffee table in the middle of the car