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Do you think that the Electric vehicles are the solution to road traffic noise?

6.6K views 40 replies 20 participants last post by  EVPotential  
#1 ·
Dear all,
I am a PHD student doing a research related with EV´s noise and vibrations. I would like tu request your help answering a questionnaire. it only takes you five minutes.

What is your opinion about road traffic noise? Do you think that the Electric vehicles are the solution?

Please, tell us your opinion using the questionnaire in the following link: COST Action TU1105

For any questions, please contact Cristina at C.Mora-Rodriguez@lboro.ac.uk

Best wishes,

Cristina Mora
 
#2 ·
Dear all,
I am a PHD student doing a research related with EV´s noise and vibrations. I would like tu request your help answering a questionnaire. it only takes you five minutes.

What is your opinion about road traffic noise? Do you think that the Electric vehicles are the solution?

Please, tell us your opinion using the questionnaire in the following link: COST Action TU1105

For any questions, please contact Cristina at C.Mora-Rodriguez@lboro.ac.uk

Best wishes,

Cristina Mora
Mod hear

Christina please don't multi post on the site, this one is the correct way to go. People get very upset if the same message is repeated in several places

Thanks Andy
 
#6 ·
sure it will as i'm living on the A23 at a traffic light junction and i can tell you that by times boy racers, buses, heavy trucks are setting off we can't talk. tire noise will be the same but the most noise we have due our location is vehicles acceleration from the traffic light and standing with engines ticking over while waiting for the red light. if they are all EV's then only the tire noise would be heard. also this will have impact in how dirty our house is due the fumes ICE crates coming into our home.
 
#7 ·
Dear all,
I am a PHD student doing a research related with EV´s noise and vibrations. I would like tu request your help answering a questionnaire. it only takes you five minutes.

What is your opinion about road traffic noise? Do you think that the Electric vehicles are the solution?

Please, tell us your opinion using the questionnaire in the following link: COST Action TU1105

For any questions, please contact Cristina at C.Mora-Rodriguez@lboro.ac.uk

Best wishes,

Cristina Mora
In urban situations EV's are much better (all though many actually have silly "noisemakers" built into them), outside of urban areas the continuous roar of traffic won't change, you are hearing tyre noise and wind noise which don't change.
 
#8 ·
The stupid noise makers can be louder than an ICE!
My partners Zoe can be heard well in advance of the car but oddly, doesn't operate in reverse which is the only time I have come near to hitting an unobservant pedestrian in one of my EV's as you have more blind spots.
 
#9 ·
We were recently driving into London on the A40, and I said "I'd hate to live in one of these houses lining the road, it must be so noisy, and the traffic is constant". After a few second's pause my wife then said "can you imagine how much better it would be if all the cars were electric?"

I don't live in a big town, but the High a Street is always very busy, and I normally have to find a side street to take a phone call. At the speeds traffic travels through our town, it's engine noise that's the major cause.

We all get quite emotive at how quiet and peaceful EVs are to drive, but it's rarely mentioned how much quieter overall the roads would be. Maybe that positive aspect should be pushed more frequently.

Has anyone/institution done a noise test of a group of ICE cars v the same number of EVs on the same road at various speeds? Would be a very interesting experiment.
 
#24 ·
I'm sure other people can confirm but my brother recently went to Tokyo and noted that one of the oddest things you notice (among a whole host of other culture diffrences) were how quiet the roads were even in such a big city because virtually every car seemed to be a hybrid or EV of some sort.

In any case, just based on my example I think there will be a measurable impact but perhaps not as much as you think. outside of the odd engine idling in the street outside the house (or the odd very loud diesel) the majority of noise that enters my house/bedroom is from the main road a couple of hundred meters away. I guess most of that is tire and wind noise so perhaps not such a big diffrence.

However, since I haven't done any such study or read any I'm reluctant to answer the questionnaire because I dont think I can be of much help I'm afraid.

best of luck though.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Dear Mark,

This is the aim of my research!
Analyse the customer expectation related with EV´s noise and vibrations.

Please answer the questionnaire, all of your answer will go to the companies in order to take into account this opinions.

Cristina
Just done the questionnaire Cristina, although it does seem a little muddled in places. May I ask who you are targeting this at? Obviously, the vast majority of people on this forum will already have an EV. What other forums/types of forums are you posting this up on?
 
#14 ·
I think there is a general recognition that for EVs tyre noise is the limiting factor (above a certain speed, below which an EV such as an e-Golf can be considered as essentially silent). However given that different tyres have different noise ratings, it would be interesting to know if there is a relationship between these and their economy ratings -- after all, the more friction the more noise.
 
#18 ·
However given that different tyres have different noise ratings, it would be interesting to know if there is a relationship between these and their economy ratings -- after all, the more friction the more noise.
Yes, but it is combined with tyre longevity too. You can have a hard-rubber low rolling resistance tyre that lasts a long time, like the Michelin Energy savers, but they are noisy or you can have a quieter low rolling resistance tyre with soft rubber that doesn't last so long. If you want a soft rubber long lasting tyre then it won't be very efficient.

Pick two, but only two, out of the list below for your tyre:-

- long life
- low rolling resistance
- quiet tyre
 
#17 ·
@cristina.

No. The solution to traffic noise is quieter road surfaces.

In some very specific areas where residences are right next to a slow-speed main city artery, yes it makes a difference there, in confined areas. But noise that comes off motorways and can be heard miles away, blighting hundreds of thousands of residents with a constant background purr of tyre noise is the main sum total noise source, for which EVs will make no difference.

I have a tale of a number of local councils and Gov department failing to implement the Environmental Noise Regulations, in fact point blank refusing to deal with it, that will make you grimace. If you want to PM me I'll send you a copy of a document I sent into a DEFRA consultation. They ignored it completely, because it drew a direct culpability to them.

Vehicle noise is very well regulated, it is easy because you can hold private companies to account and fine them. But as for the public authorities that are responsible for road quality .... they don't give a toss about being taken to court. it is all public money if anyone does try it, so very few bother.

I have also collated statistics connecting health issues, even premature death rates, with areas of large traffic noise.

New very-low-noise road surfaces are, thank goodness, becoming the norm. These are using recycled rubber, so before roads were all hard materials now there is a small degree of compliance in the materials they use and it makes the world of difference.

On a road with low noise surface, there is basically no difference in road noise to moving traffic for EVs versus car engines, excepting for the odd souped-up car with an 'after-market' exhaust on. Most of the noise is heavy traffic, buses and HGVs, and they use too much energy to be electrified right now. Some hybridisation is going on but the engines still make noise, in fact more so because they use smaller engines running at higher loads which tends to create more, not less, noise if the engine is having to operate.
 
#19 ·
Cristina, I've done the survey for you. If you want some younger input, contact my son Piers Walter at Lboro Uni, doing Computer Science. He's just passed his test, and loves driving my Ampera when he's home!

Some of the qns are maybe unclear; e.g. the ones about "do you plan to buy an EV" now or in near few years - I answered no, simply because I love the one I have and don't intend to change it for a very long time!

The qns about pedestrians not hearing these EVs - bear in mind that some will be v elderly with poor hearing but refusing to use aids, and some will be deaf anyway. There's also a possible similar problem with young children out on their bicycles on the roads, expecting to hear cars behind them. So arguably we need ways to warn even the deafest (rather hard), or simply must learn to take into account the need to be more aware than usual of "jay-walkers" & similar.

Some mfrs have attempted to deal with this in different ways; the Leafs emit a low artificial sound at low speeds (I believe); Amperas don't, but have a 2nd low-volume horn on button on a stalk which gives a road-runner like "beep-beep" which is non-aggressive & v useful. Golf GTe doesn't generate noises or give you extra beeper, but has radar/ultrasound pedestrian-detectors which can go off like a siren inside the car! This rather startled me on a test drive as the pedestrians were many yards away as I entered the VW site, and in no danger at all. But it wouldn't help much with cyclists I suspect.
The Ampera solution seems decent to me, & I sometimes use it to shift birds off the road which fail to recognise near-silent cars rushing at them.

Re silence - I suffer from mild tinnitus, and any raised noise levels such as driving a Citroen C1 (a rather un-damped interior) is enough to aggravate it a bit. So I really appreciate the superb silence in my Ampera for that reason. Plus I can hear birds as I drive, I can her quiet bits of classical music, and I also hear ambulance warning sirens a lot earlier than I used to. My neighbour drives off to work at 6:30 in his Mustang - it warbles loudly but pleasantly on tickover as he tries to sneak out of the housing estate un-noticed (and fails!). If he drove an EV he would guarantee to annoy no-one. Doesn't bother me, but it might annoy some. Thanks to the silence, even if I accelerate hard the car is quiet; EVs are very nippy indeed at low speeds, so these 2 factors mean I can nip into smaller gaps in the taffic than I can in say the C1, without alarming anyone by using high engine revs and sharp gear-changes. So there are many benefits from silent cars!:)
 
#20 ·
Hi Christina - filled it in, but the section on purchasing was a bit confusing. I'm not planning on purchasing in the next year as I already have one. But I would buy another one within 7 years and my next car will be an EV. The answers makes it looks like I'm not going to be driving an EV in the near future, but I am doing so already.

Agree you should post on a mix of forums... not just cars, but how about netmums. I'm pretty sure the demogrpahic on SpeakEV is something like 80% Male and 80% of that in the 35-60 age group. You need to post where the ladies hang out and also younger people who probably aren't ready to afford a new car - as there aren't many cheap used EV on the market under £3,000 (i.e. first car owners).
 
#21 ·
Dear all,
Thank you so much for your opinions and recommendations.
I´m going to revise the questionnaire, above all, the questions regarding with the aim of purchase.
Related with the forums I have post it, I should tell you that I will post in others too, in order to collect data from female, and people who want buy a EV, for example.
On the other hand, I have much sample of young people from university too, as you are telling me.

I continue with the research! (y)
 
#23 ·
For the moment i am posting in EV forums.
Do you recommend me another's? maybe more suitable?
Hi Christina,

Unless you are specifically targeting EV drivers, you are going to get a biased sample if you only put the questions out to EV forums. We are not representative of the general population. On top of that, most of the people on this forum reside in the UK.

I suppose it depends on your research question.

I also found a problem with your survey:

The answers for the question Please select your highest educational level have very little do with with educational level. Those look more like employment categories to me.


Visual acuity? I wasn't familiar with the 0 to 1 scale and had to look it up.

I'm probably about 0.4 without my glasses but around 0.8 with -- not sure how to answer.

I am also not sure how to answer the auditory acuity. I have mild hearing loss but only at 8kHz and above.




The survey assumes EVs are noiseless. They are not. They make about as much tire noise and wind noise as any modern car. At speeds over 20mph they are far from noiseless. Quieter than most combustion engine cars - yes. Noiseless? no.
 
#25 ·
Hi Cristina,
The questionnaire suffers from not being translated into British e.g. you ask for my income in Euros, and visual acuity in a measure that is unknown in the UK.
When I left the uni in October there was a small but active group of EV drivers on campus. Check with the Sustainability Group in Facilities Management to get in contact with them if you need more opinions from drivers.
 
#27 ·
I've filled out the questionnaire and while possible a bit muddled it's a very good attempt!

Vehicle noise is a major issue in urban areas and is reckoned to be the cause of a large number of premature deaths - I'd have to do a search, but there are a number of papers on this.

The issue with BEVs verses pedestrians and cyclists is not that they are silent - which they're not - but that they're much quieter than other road vehicles. If the drive by noise regulations were enforced better the situation would improve, but only quietening down internal combustion engines would make a real difference, particularly diesels.

When travelling at reasonable speeds there is little difference to the sound level emitted by a BEV or an ICE (notwithstanding modified vehicles), but at slow urban speeds there is a major difference. The noise pollution in urban areas would be vastly improved by 100% EV use although I can't see this happening anytime soon.

I'm also sure my neighbours have appreciated my move from a diesel powered car, through to gasoline, hybrid and finally BEV has significantly improved their quality of life since I leave home between 5:30 and 6:00 AM in the morning!
 
#28 ·
@cristina.

No. The solution to traffic noise is quieter road surfaces.
I think this is a key element to improving the situation but road noise is made up of two components - power train and road/tyre interaction. My understanding was that the predominant noise source varies with speed.

I recall a report that suggested progress has been made on mechanical noise from vehicles but little progress has been made on tyre/road noise partly due to conflicting priorities of durability (road and tyre) and safety (mostly tyre).Low noise road surfaces appear to have a higher whole life cost, although at present there is no consideration of environmental or health costs in road WLC costings.

It is a huge subject with lots of vested interests and huge sums of money. We spend billions on road repairs each year in this country and billions on tyres. it can change but the change will be very slow as resurfacing the national network takes over a century. The main target should be tyre manufacturers in my opinion as tyres have shorter life spans.

Matt
 
#29 · (Edited)
@cristina.
...Most of the noise is heavy traffic, buses and HGVs, and they use too much energy to be electrified right now. Some hybridisation is going on but the engines still make noise, in fact more so because they use smaller engines running at higher loads which tends to create more, not less, noise if the engine is having to operate.
Cristina, Donald makes a valid point here, but I think there's a solution to this problem associated with Hybrid EV heavy-goods vehicles.

Background:
A few weeks ago I took my wife & a friend on a cross-country trip in my Ampera. Total distance meant I had to use petrol for 50% of this mileage. If I make my petrol engine work hard by going up steep hills (and some of these were very steep), it gets noisy inside the car, and outside, making it less pleasant for my passengers and aggravating my tinnitus.

So I simply switched to electric mode to do the "heavy-lifting" up hills, and used the petrol on the flat & descending when it runs at a medium rotational speed (rpm) and is extremely quiet.

HGV Design
Applying this same process to the HGV noise problem, the correct design for HGV EVs is to make sure that:

a) The electric drive system is the main motor powering the wheels (Ampera has 112 kW electric motor)
b) Have the petrol/diesel engine the smaller one (Ampera has 56 kW petrol-generator)
c) Provide a battery of sufficient capacity to to do the hardest task (might be UKs longest motorway hill-climb fully-loaded for HGV for example. For a bus in Winchester this be climbing Romsey Road hill).

Hybrid EV cars
Not all hybrid EVs are designed the same, and these three points above are critically important if I'm determined to minimise my noise-levels when the vehicle is working at full power. Ampera satisfies all 3 conditions for cars, no others do!

Current Hybrid EV limitations
If you look closely at the current rash of PHEVs on sale now in UK, Golf GTe (= e_Tron), Outlander, BMW 330e, Prius, Mercedes C350e,...) ALL these MUST use the petrol/diesel at full power when running at full power. This is because all these have a large ICE engine, with a small electric motor/generator added-on, to provide efficiency improvements by regenerating when braking. They all have small batteries, because that's all that is required to store regen energy, and by making it just large enough to do about 20 to 30 miles on electric-only low-speed driving, they can achieve very high apparent mpg using current tests. The one big advantage they have over Ampera design is thay keep their full passenger capacity, typically being 5 seaters. Ampera loses the middle rear-seat due to the battery being much larger, so is reduced to a 4-seater.

Ampera
So far, the ONLY hybrid EV (that I'm aware of, and is well-known) is the Ampera (Volt in USA) which is designed the correct way round, so full-power work can be done using electricity alone, quietly. This lets me run the (ICE) engine at a steady rate for a long period of time to provide the required total amount of mechanical energy to do the required task.

BMW i3 - comes close

There is one other PHEV which comes close, the BMW i3, as this has a large electric motor and large battery and small ICE, meeting the 3 criteria above. Sadly the ICE is so pathetically feeble that it only acts as a continuously-running very-low-power dynamo generating a modest topup for the battery system. The ICE in this car hasn't been integrated into the drivesystem to any great degree, and in effect simply provides the equivalent of having a slightly larger battery in the first place. It cannot cover several hundred miles non-stop at half-power (high-speed motorway cruising) rates.

BMW don't even capture any of the waste heat to provide cabin warming! ICE on this car looks very much like an afterthought, and it's possible that this design decision was influenced by Californian legislation requiring the ICE range to be considerably less than the Electric range, which rather negates the main purpose of the hybridisation in the first place! The i3 is really not a true hybrid for these reasons, it's a genuine electric car.

Voltec drivesystem versatility
Ampera can be both - pure EV, or pure ICE (petrol) with no range-limit and still capable of 112 kW full-power working even when the battery is fully drained, and when the engine can only provide half the required power! This apparent "impossibility" does not break the laws of physics, because even when "fully drained", the battery still has 20% of the capacity remaining, enough to cover brief full-power surges needed for overtaking/hill-climbs, which takes the battery into "negative-territory" if you like, i.e. below normal "zero" level of 20% full. The car can only do this because it has a large battery to begin with, so has a larger "emergency-reserve".

ICE in Hybrid HGV EVs
Once you have an HGV with the 3 criteria above satisfied, you will have a vehicle which has the electrical power & range to do the hardest task electrically and quietly. These tasks typically come in bursts - after a hill-climb, there's the descent when power-requirement is far lower, and by running the ICE at a modest speed, it can output the required power without running noisily, as the battery is acting as a buffer to provide the peaks.

As petrol engines are economical when NOT being run on tickover, they would be more suited to HGV use in a hybrid EV design, than they are for petrol-only use (where their very-low-power and tickover inefficiency is poor compared to diesel). The petrol ICE would run at a steady "middling" speed set at optimum efficiency for long stretches of time, and when the battery has plenty of charge and loads are light (flat town-driving, low-speeds, tickover while loading/unloading) the petrol ICE will shut off completely and the battery does all this work.

Diesel Hybrid HGVs
Even diesel designs can benefit from being integrated into hybeir EVs, as the range of engine speeds and power is less demanding, so the actual mechanics and cost can be less. There's no fundamental need in a diesel hybrid HGV to have a dual-mass flywheel with complex friction-damper in as cars do, as the weight considerations aren't so severe, and it should be easier to control diesel emissions if run at steady, constant speed designed to maintain the traction battery at near-to-full levels, allowign very gentle slowing and speeding-up of the diesel rpms.

This is actually exactly how the Ampera is designed to run, and it is the ONLY Hybrid EV car to work like this, aiming to run the petrol at steady speeds with no running at tickover.
This drive system (Voltec) is worth studying in some detail - it appears complex at first, but as you get to understand it you will realise just how elegant it is, and what a brilliant job was done by the engineers designing it.

Conclusion
The more I drive my Ampera & follow these forums, the more I learn, and the more I realise still needs to be learnt about this remarkable transition we're in. The amount of wisdom & skills others in here have is quite astonishing. I think your area of research is important, and please let us all help you as much as we can. The word needs to get out, and there's a huge education job still to be done.

At the very least, please get someone to give you a ride in an Ampera - it's quite an experience! Rather like being in a Tesla, but without any range-anxiety, ever! :):) (Apologies to any Tesla owners who have read this far - couldn't resist a slight dig! And, yes, I am jealous...:))
 
#30 ·
HandyAndy, Your recent posts seem to me like your trying to convince yourself the Ampera was and still is the right car for you.
You constantly claim it's the only Hybrid that can run at full power on Electric (all 112KW) why is this such a big deal, If you need to use 100% throttle to get the car moving and maintain a certain speed, then it would have some significance, but if like me an the majority of the car driving population, you spend most of your journeys following the vehicle in front at probably 20% throttle (not 20% power) then i fail to see how it matters at all.
You really should slow down and try driving at less than full power (why you call it full power i'm not sure)

In your perfect little world, it seems everyone would drive an Ampera car, or an Ampera Van, or Ampera HGV etc

But i am impressed by the Ampera's ability to run forever without stopping for petrol or charging, if only every vehicle manufacturer could copy this model the world would be a better place.

Ampera can be both - pure EV, or pure ICE (petrol) with no range-limit and still capable of 112 kW full-power
Ampera - it's quite an experience! Rather like being in a Tesla, but without any range-anxiety, ever
If you look closely at the current rash of PHEVs on sale now in UK, Golf GTe (= e_Tron), Outlander, BMW 330e, Prius, Mercedes C350e,...) ALL these MUST use the petrol/diesel at full power when running at full power.
But most of them have considerably more power than the Ampera, so i'm not sure why this matters.

This is because all these have a large ICE engine, with a small electric motor/generator added-on, to provide efficiency improvements by regenerating when braking.
I wouldn't consider an engine capacity of 1400cc to be "Large", Efficiency improvements are not only provided by regenerative braking, believe it or not they also have plug sockets mounted on these cars so they can charged too.

They all have small batteries, because that's all that is required to store regen energy, and by making it just large enough to do about 20 to 30 miles on electric-only low-speed driving, they can achieve very high apparent mpg using current tests.
I'd hate to have one of these small batteries for a wart! Maybe my comments above are more justified about your speed, when you consider 81mph to be low speed on electric only! As for the Apparent very high Mpg, well my car has just managed a shade over 250miles with barely a sniff of petrol, So yeah used appropriately it can do very high MPG, infact if i so wished, i'm sure i could get the Golf to do over 1000mpg, maybe even 100,000mpg, but that doesn't show the full picture, electricity still has to be paid for by someone, so PPM is probably a more reflective way of comparing with other vehicles.

It's a bit off topic for the OP, but a balanced view is always better appreciated than just one side, and this debate has many more sides to it, than these 2!
 
#31 · (Edited)
Yes indeed, there are many points of view! A friend of mine bought an e-Tron, and it's a great car, and he's getting excellent mpgs out of it. My point about having full power on electric-only is simply that, when I _do_ want it all, it's there quietly which is very important to me. I don't often need it, and most of my driving maxes out at 60-ish, where the GTe would cruise nicely on electric. The sort of place I find I use most of the 150 hp is e.g. joining the A34 just north of Oxford, where the dual-carriageway is straight, and often very busy, traffic doing 60-70 in both lanes, few gaps and small ones at that. So I find myself stationary at the start of the slip-lane, waiting for a gap to approach, and when I does it's foot to the floor to get up to 60 asap & slot-in without forcing others to slow-down etc. I don't think many PHEV's can achieve that!
There are some other slip-lanes which are nasty - on he A34 near Newbury, where they seem dangerously short to me, and where lots of acceleration helps. Would be good to have your 200+ hp there!

Yes plenty of the other PHEVs are more powerful than Ampera - get one of those if you want/need the extra passenger space etc. I find I have enough power for my needs, and it's delivered with a decent-ish range (but would love the i3s range!). I just find it sad that so few of the recent PHEVs have such basic drive-system designs by comparison. Maybe GM got in there first and patented everything worth doing & all the best tricks?

I'm delighted you're getting over 250 miles with minimal petrol used - sounds to me like you've got your perfect car as well! :) You have other advantages - better dealer network, and probably a more reliable car as it's a lot newer. Mine's dead at the moment - and looking like a flatbed trip to get some transistors fixed or something! :(