Adapt in which direction ? CCS charger to Chademo car or vica versa ? As one does earth tests and the other doesn't, at the very least I think this would only be possible in one direction.

I suspect this is a very difficult problem with not a lot of upside in trying to implement it.

 

One might say CCS has been designed specifically to make such a thing very hard.

 

Technically it is almost certainly possible but in practice the cost and size would make it completely impracticable.

When I bought my i3 I was told that CCS was the European standard but after over 3 years it seems that CHAdeMO is still the dominant system especially on the motorways despite Dale Vince stating that they would be ensuring that CCS was available in every MSA, still waiting for that to happen Dale.

 

Handshake shouldn't be too hard, basically it just involves a small CPU in the adaptor.

The things that are particularly challenging are:

• Mechanical locking. For DC, you must have positive locking to prevent the connector being unplugged mid-charge. CHAdeMO has this in the plug, CCS has it in the car. Hence Tesla's adapter is easy in this respect - they already have a lock in the car, and the CHAdeMO plug provides a lock on the other side of the adapter, so the adapter doesn't need to do any locking. A CHAdeMO(car) to CCS(charger) adapter would need to provide two mechanical locks interlocked to the control protocol.
• Voltage sequencing. Things need to be organized so that when contactors close to connect the charger to the battery the voltage on both sides is the same to avoid a sudden surge of current (potentially welding the contactor and at least wearing it out) when it closes. CHAdeMO and CCS do this in a different order - IIRC, CHAdeMO makes the battery voltage appear on the connector first and the charger observes that before matching its output; CCS expects the charger to output a matching voltage before closing the vehicle contactor. Tesla's adapter has to provide a circuit to generate 400V within the adapter to get the charger to start up.
• Power for the adapter's internal electronics. CHAdeMO provides 12V power from the charger to the car with a useful amount of current - so an adapter can use that to power its internal electronics (and any solenoid locks etc.). An adapter in the other direction (CCS charger) has almost no power available on the connector until the protocol has advanced to the point that the battery voltage is available. Such an adapter would probably have to have its own internal battery (and then what do you do if it goes flat?).

So it's not impossible, but not easy. An adapter in the CCS(car) to CHAdeMO(charger) direction is significantly easier than one in the other direction - and Tesla's adapter is in most respects equivalent to that easier case.

 

The things that are particularly challenging are:

• Mechanical locking. For DC, you must have positive locking to prevent the connector being unplugged mid-charge. CHAdeMO has this in the plug, CCS has it in the car. Hence Tesla's adapter is easy in this respect - they already have a lock in the car, and the CHAdeMO plug provides a lock on the other side of the adapter, so the adapter doesn't need to do any locking. A CHAdeMO(car) to CCS(charger) adapter would need to provide two mechanical locks interlocked to the control protocol.
• Voltage sequencing. Things need to be organized so that when contactors close to connect the charger to the battery the voltage on both sides is the same to avoid a sudden surge of current (potentially welding the contactor and at least wearing it out) when it closes. CHAdeMO and CCS do this in a different order - IIRC, CHAdeMO makes the battery voltage appear on the connector first and the charger observes that before matching its output; CCS expects the charger to output a matching voltage before closing the vehicle connector. Tesla's adapter has to provide a circuit to generate 400V within the adapter to get the charger to start up.
• Power for the adapter's internal electronics. CHAdeMO provides 12V power from the charger to the car with a useful amount of current - so an adapter can use that to power its internal electronics (and any solenoid locks etc.). An adapter in the other direction (CCS charger) has almost no power available on the connector until the protocol has advanced to the point that the battery voltage is available. Such an adapter would probably have to have its own internal battery (and then what do you do if it goes flat?).

So it's not impossible, but not easy. An adapter in the CCS(car) to CHAdeMO(charger) direction is significantly easier than one in the other direction - and Tesla's adapter is in most respects equivalent to that easier case.

Well, I'd assume that such an adaptor would be a box with a socket for the charger end in it, and a plug for the car end on a flying cable, both obtained from wherever the charger and car manufactures get them from. A ChaDeMo to CSS would probably have to have a button to engage the latches.

A re-chargeable internal battery, topped up during each charge, would be unlikely to run out.

 

Clearly it can be done, after all both type of charger could be powered by a large battery, and both types can change a battery.

So given the above, the science has been proven, and it just needs a little engineering to reduce the cost.......

 

It is interesting that the LEVC TX electric taxi has both CHAdeMO and CCS. That must have been quite a challenge and add a lot of cost.

 

Challenge, not really. Cost, perhaps.

Easier to design dual CCS and Chademo into the car than to try to make an adaptor that converts between them!

 

one does earth tests and the other doesn't

Can you explain a bit more about these earth tests? I assume it's testing continuity from the charger's earth to.. what exactly? The car chassis? How does that work if the car's on insulating rubber tyres?

 

I only know about a couple of DC chargers whose architecture is Chademo and the ccs plug is effectively an adaptor. Are there many DC chargers that only have one or the other? I’ve never seen one.

 

Seriously, though, wouldn't 'real drivers' want to pay just a little more to have both socket types on their cars at this difficult juncture of two standards proliferating? So that comes down to the interest and imagination of car manufacturers to offer that .... and I guess they aren't actually that interested in the car driver, they just want to be seen to be collecting their 'green' shield stamps for pumping out unimaginative and poorly specified EVs.

 

Can you explain a bit more about these earth tests? I assume it's testing continuity from the charger's earth to.. what exactly? The car chassis? How does that work if the car's on insulating rubber tyres?

I’m not sure if the earth test thing is true between ccs and chademo, however an ELI (earth loop impedance) test does not require a reference earth to test against. Effectively you test the current flow between phase and earth which when connected is a loop back to the local substation. This current needs to be high enough (impedance of the loop low enough) to make the breaker/ fuse disconnect within a certain time dependant on equipment type. The current also can’t be too high but that’s a different story.

 

The "Residual Current" circuit breaker measures the difference in current between live and neutral, and cuts out if any current is mysteriously disappearing.

The equivalent with a DC circuit like this would probably just involve putting the same, fairly high voltage on both terminals and failing if there was any current flow.

 

Well, I'd assume that such an adaptor would be a box with a socket for the charger end in it, and a plug for the car end on a flying cable, both obtained from wherever the charger and car manufactures get them from. A ChaDeMo to CSS would probably have to have a button to engage the latches.

A re-chargeable internal battery, topped up during each charge, would be unlikely to run out.

CHAdeMO charger to CCS combo(car) would probably look a lot like this, but with a CCS combo plug.

The real question is would the car socket be able to withstand the load of the adapter + CHAdeMO gun?

 

The "Residual Current" circuit breaker measures the difference in current between live and neutral, and cuts out if any current is mysteriously disappearing.

The equivalent with a DC circuit like this would probably just involve putting the same, fairly high voltage on both terminals and failing if there was any current flow.

 

There's nothing stopping you doing an earthed system on DC with either low EFLI and fuses or higher EFLI and RCDs, which then works exactly the same as the AC case. However, that's not what's specified for either CHAdeMO or CCS, which both specify the car traction system to be isolated from earth/chassis with isolation monitoring.

The advantage of isolation monitoring is that it allows for 'first fault' (ie. one of the wires becoming shorted to the chassis) to be detected before anything bad has happened, whereas in an earthed system it 'goes bang' on first fault (even if the earthing design makes it a safe 'bang'). This allows a car to shut down in a controlled fashion on 'first fault', rather than blowing a fuse and stopping dead.

Both CCS and CHAdeMO standards appear to require the isolation monitoring to be performed on the charger side, with the car's isolation monitoring to be disabled while connected to the charger to avoid the two fighting against each other.

 

Only the car manufacturer can licence an adaptor and I really can't see Nissan doing it. Long term we will see CHAdeMO disappear in Europe, but chargers will probably be around for 10 years. All new chargers still have it - for now.

 

All new chargers still have it - for now

I just can't see new Charging Network providers building out their networks with the added cost of supporting relatively slow (50kW max) CHAdeMO when they could have a cluster of 150 kW or even faster CCS rapid charger and sell more kWhs per day with fewer EV stalls as EV's go mainstream over the next 5 years. There are some good deals to be had on LEAF 2's as ex-demonstrators and I'm tempted but if CHAdeMO Rapid DC chargers are mainly to be found on Motorway routes and Networks such as Ionity are building on non-motorway routes the very routes which are more suited to the LEAF in any case, then the residuals will be depressed lower going forward and the LEAF will be only viable in the used market as a town car and daily commute. I, therefore, walked away from the deal.

 

Except for Ionity ?

 

I wrote to my MP complaining about a government minister apparently endorsing Ionity at a launch event. Ironically, he (my MP that was) also owns a Leaf....

 

As above, the only network not including CHAdeMO is Ionity. Most want customers and there are a lot of those cars in UK, unlike perhaps mainland Europe.

I actually though Ionity were including CHAdeMO in UK as the government have made it clear that public charging must accommodate all cars. See below from Automated and Electric Vehicles Act (my bold). If they continue to install CCS only I can see secondary legislation being enacted.

"However, as the market develops and private investment increases and public support consequently decreases, legislation may be needed to ensure current levels of interoperability are not threatened. This will be achieved by mandating any necessary standards to achieve physical interoperability between every public charging point and every vehicle. Such a standard would be a minimum in that it would be open to each operator to continue to offer other types of support through inclusion of other connection mechanisms, should they wish to do so. Additionally, technology and innovation are developing quickly and wireless charging is becoming more widespread. The aim in making regulations under clause 9(3) would be not to stifle further innovation."

 

Thanks for the clarification and reassurance regarding the availability of CHAdeMO for the present at least. I wonder if the words " every public charging point" might be intrpreted as " every public charging location/site" because there are charging locations where there are not all types of DC and or AC Rapid provided for. Zap Map report on their site today that "there are 2305 devices with a JEVS CHAdeMO 50kW connector, 1595 devices with a Type 2 Mennekes 43kW connector, 2058 with a CCS Combo 50kW connector" so CHAdeMO are charging connectors are still ahead of CCS but I suspect catching up fast.

 

At present, I think the Ionity pricing system and locations make Ionity of little interests of Leaf owners anyway.

 

If you think about it, that doesn't really make much sense. Disregarding the fact that Leaf owners can't use Ionity anyway, I don't see why you have singled them out as the only ones who might take issue with their pricing system and locations. Do we use different roads and find things less affordable? If you prick us, do we not bleed?*

* If the quote doesn't mean much, you need to swot up on your Shakespeare.

 

CCS is streaming Chademo is beta max so it will work out in the end

 

Unless it turns out to be the other way around. Betamax was the more sophisticated technology, but lost out because the American Porn industry went for VHS. The lesson is - these choices are seldom dictated by logic.

 

From the technical standpoint, the unnecessarily complex communications protocol use by CCS is a very obviously poor choice, clearly chosen by IT types rather than electrical engineers. It makes developing and debugging chargers and in-car charge controllers much more difficult, and hence more prone to all the compatibility issues we've seen. And that's just the Greenphy PLC transport layers, before you even start looking at the actual CCS protocol, which I'm told isn't very well specified, with areas open to interpretation.
It didn't really matter to end-users who won VHS vs. betamax, unfortunately the same can't be said for CCS, which we're stuck with now.

 

From the technical standpoint, the unnecessarily complex communications protocol use by CCS is a very obviously poor choice, clearly chosen by IT types rather than electrical engineers. It makes developing and debugging chargers and in-car charge controllers much more difficult, and hence more prone to all the compatibility issues we've seen...

Whatever the explanation for CCS unreliability, the frequent false-negative charge station reports posted by CCS BEV drivers posted at plugshare in the USA pose a real problem for CHAdeMO BEV drivers, particularly in regions where DC charge stations are few-and-far-between, and often consist of a single combined CHAdeMO/CCS charger.

I have learned to essentially ignore DC charger failure reports where a CCS BEV is involved, and have not been disappointed by an inoperative charger (yet).

Unfortunately, many posters do not report anything beyond a "failed" DC charger, leaving you to wonder if the charger is in fact, unavailable for CHAdeMO BEVs.

The story below would seem to blame the physical designs of GM/CCS plugs/ports/cables for many charge failures, but other CCS makes seem to have their own frequent reliability problems at DC chargers.

"Chevrolet Bolt EV and Spark EV Charging Port Issues and Corrections

The Chevy Bolt EV and Spark EV CCS charging ports have several issues. Some of these problems have quick and easy solutions; however, GM must physically redesign and update the CCS port on their future electric vehicles.


For many Chevy Spark EV and Chevy Bolt EV owners, DC fast charging can be a mixed experience. There's already a learning curve for new electric vehicle owners who are coming from the world of fueling internal combustion vehicles; however, there are additional issues that owners of these two electric vehicles must be aware of in order to have positive, successful DC fast charging experiences. The CCS port on the Chevy Spark EV might need to be physically modified, and the Chevy Bolt EV requires owners to provide additional support when using heavier, liquid-cooled CCS cables. For future electric vehicle models, GM needs to reconfigure and redesign their CCS ports in order to assure the best customer experience.
In this story, I will explain some of the problems with the Spark EV and Bolt EV charging ports, the consequences and issues that result from these problems, the corrections and workarounds that are available to owners, and the ways in which GM should redesign their CCS ports moving forward..."

Chevrolet Bolt EV and Spark EV Charging Port Issues and Corrections

The Chevy Bolt EV and Spark EV CCS charging ports have several issues. Some of these problems have quick and easy solutions; however, GM must physically redesign and update the CCS port on their future electric vehicles.

www.torquenews.com

 

Think he’s talking about stateside

 

The issues there for S/X/3 are the same as those here for S/X and the same approach could be adopted - a simple mechanical adapter, with the CCS protocol implemented in the car. It would be surprising (though possible) if current S/X didn't have this already in the USA matching EU versions of the same car, but most existing S/X will require upgrade just as they do here. Less clear whether US versions of the 3 will have bothered with CCS support - they might have been tempted to take the cost saving of leaving it out. Either way, it's clearly possible and IMO just a matter of time.

More open is the question of whether they eventually go CCS on superchargers in the USA. If they were planning to do so, you'd think they would have done it around the same time as making the switch in Europe - but they didn't, implying that they intend to stick with the Tesla connector for some while.

 

I'm actually starting to wonder at what point will we be able to retrofit CCS to Chademo-based vehicles... looks like the work at New Electric in Ireland could be going in the right direction here for custom conversions, but would it work in production vehicles? If so, we could retrofit and then have all options, same as the London taxis. I think this might be better than an adapter, as you could hide the electronics in the car and not need to bother with them hanging off the side and possible theft.

 

Possible in principle, the problem is it needs quite a lot of different engineering work for each model of car, both electrical and mechanical, so if it was viable, it would only beviable for cars that there are enough of out there.
Proably the lowest cost way would be to use the original OBC, and have a CCS-to-Chademo protocol converter, and replacement charge port. Both are nontrivial - I can't see it being vaible for less than £1K

 

..and that's before you get into all the approvals and safety issues. And of course only suitable for cars that are out of warranty

 

By the time Chademo is gone my Czero will have well and truly expired, lol

 

lolllllll tbh, I think will be interesting to see the future of EVs because imho the most sustainable option is probably not exclusively building new cars, but also extending the life of those on the road... which may mean new battery replacement projects and retrofits to accomodate newer charging infrastructure.

 

Looks like it's landed... CCS to Chademo.

 

Thread locked to prevent duplicate discussions. There is an ongoing discussion of the adapter in another thread.