[smartie]

Reposting from the other thread:

I'm not sure it's such a great model as it does not provide for a restoration of the battery pack back to 100% of a new battery, only to 70% once it fall below 66% of new capacity. Anyone who needs more than 70% battery capacity may not be able to use the car as required even if they have a valid warranty claim.

Again, I don't think it is such a big issue in the UK as the warranty threshold is unlikely to be breached withing the warranty period/mileage.

Kevin Sharpe said: ↑
All of the Nissan drivers I know seem happy that they have a degradation warranty. Are they not a good model for what works?

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

That's why I'm saying they should provide a battery degradation curve and warranty that tracks it.

My previous comment was in response to Smartie.

sorry, my mistake... fully agree

 

[smartie]

But the Nissan warranty doesn't do that and is being help up a model that would work for most people.

That's why I'm saying they should provide a battery degradation curve and warranty that tracks it.

My previous comment was in response to Smartie.

 

[Lee Howard]

To be fair you are going to need to include the temperature ranges the car was kept at, how hard it was driven, how it was charged every time, how long it can be sat at any given state of charge, how many miles it's done and how old it is, including how long it sat before purchase.

Warranties aren't used to ensure fairness. Warranties are used to set the minimum expectations for the customer which will be honoured by the manufacturer. Tires (or tyres) and brakes are also subject to wear-and-tear subject to usage, and yet manufacturers of those components will warrant them for a stated number of miles and time. This isn't done to be fair. This is done to assure the customer of expectations.

That Tesla offers its customers no expectations with regard to battery degradation is simply uncool.

Any warranty that is regardless of operating condition is going to be completely useless to the vast majority of people. The end result is that every manufacturer will do like GM - you'll pay for, and carry around, battery that you are not allowed to use, however desperate you are. The manufacturer will want to protect themselves and will do so at your inconvenience.

Such sensationalism! I have not heard from any Volt/Ampera owner that they are *inconvenienced* by the design - quite the opposite, in fact. While there may be some limited truth to the usage window being conservative to avoid apparent degradation it also is likely that this was done to reduce actual degradation as well since degradation is more-pronounced at the far ends of actual SOC.

 

[fenlander]

Warranties aren't used to ensure fairness. Warranties are used to set the minimum expectations for the customer which will be honoured by the manufacturer. Tires (or tyres) and brakes are also subject to wear-and-tear subject to usage, and yet manufacturers of those components will warrant them for a stated number of miles and time.

I don't think I've ever been offered a distance warranty for a tyre - do you have a link so we can compare the terms?

Every warranty like this I can find just guarantees against manufacturing defects over a 'lifetime' - much like the Tesla warranty does. No mention of guaranteeing it will last that long due to wear and tear.

 

[Lee Howard]

I don't think I've ever been offered a distance warranty for a tyre - do you have a link so we can compare the terms?

http://lesschwab.com/tires/warranty-info

Click the tire warranty link for the PDF.

 

[fenlander]

http://lesschwab.com/tires/warranty-info

Click the tire warranty link for the PDF.

Interesting, thanks.

"WHAT IS NOT COVERED BY THE LIMITED WARRANTY FOR TREAD LIFE: The limited warranty for tread life does not cover services, damage or wear due to any of the following: misuse or abuse, misalignment or tires out of balance, over or underinflation, repairs, off road use or use on unpaved roads, use on commercial vehicles, campers, or trailers, excessive loading, vehicle accidents, or tire contact with curbs, poles, garbage bins or other similar items on or off the road surface."

What would the equivalent be for a battery? Restrictions on how long it was left at certain levels of charge? Temperature constraints? Number of rapid charges?

"Covered Tires not regularly rotated will be considered abused for purposes of this Limited Warranty."

That's me taken for. I've never rotated a tyre

 

[JamesM]

I would like to see some data on the degradation and battery health from the Model S on the road. If the car is always connected I'm guessing it sends back all that sort of data to Tesla?

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Very interesting post on TMC regarding the warranty and a must read for all prospective and existing Model S owners;

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...nt-and-future-battery-degradation-warranty/page4?p=756113&viewfull=1#post756113

 

[Paul]

"Covered Tires not regularly rotated will be considered abused for purposes of this Limited Warranty."

That's me taken for. I've never rotated a tyre [/SIZE]

Every time you drive the tyres rotate surely. There's a loophole and a half for someone to jump through?

 

[Simon Mac]

I think there could be an opportunity here for a smart/some smart insurance firms to offer third party battery warranties, as they do GAP and other forms of insurance.

Extending this thought process a little, I would consider GAP insurance on range differences between a predicted remaining range after 3 year and actual remaining range, specifically wrt the impact it has on resale.

Clearly Kevin's car would be worth less on the open market than an identical car that hadn't experienced such a level of battery degradation.

 

[Teo]

Its almost like a scam, whilst Tesla offering infinite mileage warranty on the battery, which would lured potential buyers a false sense of security but in fact, it excludes battery degradation.

I agree. It is very misleading. The fact that Tesla advertises unlimited mile battery warranty makes people think they don't have anything to worry about. When people look at details I marked below, what do they think? They might think something like "I won't drive 125.000 miles in 8 years. So that works for me". They might think, "Because I will get the 85, I don't have to worry about the battery".

I don't like pointing out only problems without offering a solution. I think a possible solution for Tesla would be to change that text to the following:

• 8 year, unlimited battery failure and drive unit warranty
• Up to 125.000 miles, mileage dependent battery degradation warranty

I used the term 'battery failure' because this is what it is. A big part of the misunderstanding is the incorrect wording. Their current warranty covers only failure but the wording doesn't reflect that. For battery degradation I wrote what I think would be the ideal solution. Considering that Tesla has liquid cooling, their battery shouldn't degrade to 70% only after 60.000. So I changed that to 125.000 miles, same as battery failure warranty for the S60.

But that wouldn't be enough to be the ideal solution because from Kevin's experience we know that he started having problems only 16 months after he bought the car. For any owner it would be disappointing if the range dropped a lot suddenly instead slowly over time but was still above the 70% threshold.

One possible solution is to divide the 30% by years. If the battery can degrade up to 30% in 8 years, then in one year it can degrade up to 30/8= 3.75%, 7.5% in two, 11.25% in three and 15% in four years and so on. But this wouldn't work because then some people could intentionally drive their car a lot to get a new battery before the warranty is over. Like somebody said above, this should be a level unachievable by normal use. I think therefore it makes sense to base the percentages on mileage. That part could be explained with a chart. The page could say something like this:

"At Tesla we want our customers to have a great ownership experience which is why we created an industry leading battery degradation warranty to give them piece of mind. This warranty guarantees capacity and range, depending on miles driven. As an example, if you have a Tesla Model S 85 and you drive it 30.000 miles, our warranty guarantees that your range will be 245 miles or more after a range charge which is 92.8% of the original EPA rated range".

This is what Tesla should do if their focus is widespread adoption of electric cars. It would create peace of mind and it would be something really impressive for them to do. I think their approach to battery degradation undermines their mission. Do you want to drive a Tesla and risk having battery problems or do you want a petrol car and avoid issues? People are already worried about electric car batteries. For once I wish Tesla would fix an issue before it is all over the media.

 

[Jimbo]

Wow, you really have fallen deep into this, haven't you @Teo?

Let me ask: how many ICE manufacturers warranty the MPG of their cars?
Or the emissions?
Or even the BHP?

Just like EV batteries, all feature predominately in marketing material, all get worse over time, all have financial implications. You may never even get the advertised BHP or MPG out of a brand new car.

In the spirit of balance, I think you now need to complain to the ASA about Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, Vauxhall, Mazda, Fiat, Jaguar, Land Rover, Nissan, etc, etc, etc. for their blatantly misleading websites.

We should contribute this amazing "no s*** Sherlock" revelation to the Sunday press as well.

"Rising emissions forcing change to BEV"

 

[Lee Jones]

There's an easy solution for Tesla; reduce the "visible" capacity of the battery so that any early degredation is "invisible" to the user (as I believe some others have said other manufacturers do). So we all start off with a lower range from new and our batteries miraculously never lose range. (I don't like this solution at all!)

I'm sure I read somewhere that 80% range remaining at the end of the (then) 4 year warranty period would be reasonable. I even had it in my head that this was warranteed, so I must be one of the many who didn't read the actual warranty before committing to purchase.

As others have said, I really can't believe Tesla would let hundreds or even thousands of people experience poor battery life without helping out; it would kill them, surely?

I assume Tesla must be collecting battery information for all cars on the road, they are in an excellent position to utilise that data and provide feedback to current and potential users regarding battery life. If battery life is prooving exceptional, then it would further boost sales. Unless, of course, merely mentioning battery degradation is a salesman's nightmare.

 

[Snaxmuppet]

I think that no one would need an MPG warranty on an ICE because although it does vary over time it is never that far from what is acceptable or expected. Even if ICE MPG does drop there is nearly always a reason and a remedy. I don't think comparing MPG and battery capacity is a valid comparison.

 

[flipper]

I think the no one would need an MPG warranty on an ICE because although it does vary over time it is never that far from what is acceptable or expected. Even if ICE MPG does drop there is nearly always a reason and a remedy. I don't think comparing MPG and battery capacity is a valid comparison.

Exactly, if your mpg dropped by 30% you'd want it fixed - and the chances are it would be covered by warranty (faulty injectors perhaps). The fact that the battery pack is a much bigger and more expensive component doesn't excuse the fact that it would no longer be delivering what was expected.

 

[Jimbo]

I think the no one would need an MPG warranty on an ICE because although it does vary over time it is never that far from what is acceptable or expected. Even if ICE MPG does drop there is nearly always a reason and a remedy. I don't think comparing MPG and battery capacity is a valid comparison.

Of course it's valid. It directly affects range. It could be argued that remedying an ICE is harder because there are many interconnected reasons for a drop in MPG. Remedies could easily stretch to multiple thousands with a block or even cylinder head replacement and new cat.

The difference between ICE and EV is that no one would notice a drop of 9 miles in range in an ICE, because it's so quick to refill the tank,meaning that few ICE drivers obsess about it.

 

[Simon Mac]

The other thing we are missing is viable re-manufacturing of the battery packs. We know roughly speaking a brand new 85 pack costs $45,000 (gulp)

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ws/1089183_life-with-tesla-model-s-battery-upgrade-from-60-kwh-to-85-kwh/page-3

How likely is it all 16 internal modules have dropped capacity? Is it more likely one or 2 have failed bringing the overall packs range down?

Replacing one module at $4k is a much different proposition. If aftermarket suppliers get involved, I'd expect the price to fall even further.

 

[Jimbo]

A little gedankenexperiment. Let's say you bought a new F430 convertible in 2008 for £140k and you have duly paid the £3,500/year to extend the warranty every year from 2012.

The car officially does 15mpg. It has a 21g tank, giving a max range of 315 miles.

Six years later, in 2014, you realise that the car is only getting 252 miles out of a tank after just 50,000 miles. A 20% reduction! You take it back to Ferrari, who investigate and eventually come back to you with "this is fair wear and tear". What do you expect their next statement to be?

a) As you bought the extended warranty, we will replace the engine, gearbox and exhaust system for free, even though there is no MPG or range provision in the warranty.

b) There is no MPG or range provision in the warranty. You will need to pay us to replace the engine, gearbox and exhaust system to get the car back to the original spec. As we no longer build these cars, you will have to wait until we can source the components. There is no guarantee that the car will meet specification after this work, just as there was no guarantee that the car met specification when you bought it.

c) This is not something we can fix. However, as a goodwill gesture, we can offer you a new Ferrari at cost price.

d)...?

 

[Edd Beesley]

I don't think that really works here, the MPG realised by the driver is based on the way they drive, it's under their control. The amount of electricity that goes into a battery is not.