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USA. Disturbing statistic. Not coming back to EVs

8.7K views 79 replies 25 participants last post by  LUKA EV  
#1 ·
I picked up a ''TIME'' magazine (dated August 2016). I found a very disturbing statistic.
75% of Americans who traded in a Hybrid or electric car in 2016 took home an all gas car.
This is a very negative sign. People who already have an electric car are the early adopters & presumably very keen EV folks. 75% of them moving away from EVs is somewhat horrific. If believers are not convinced, why should non believers be convinced. The fact that it applies to Hybrids is even more disturbing as a hybrid does not suffer from range issues.
The Norway model of just making the incentives so big that people are willing to not have the car they actually want is not sustainable.
Does anyone have statistics for the number people in other countries who stay with EVs when they trade in their first EV?
 
#4 ·
It's not really all that surprising, most people won't consider an EV until they need to due to fossil fuel costs or legislative changes drive them towards it.

In many respects, many EVs are a bit ahead of their time and with petrol so cheap and readily available I can understand why a flirtation with EVs might get a bit tiresome.

Wasn't the Prius very popular in the US at one point? It could be that has skewed the figures somewhat, It's a shame if people interested in BEV/PHEV vehicles never got past that vehicle....

On one of the i3 forums which has a heavy US presence, it seems to be going down well.

Given the US is one of the biggest consumer markets in the world, and the tail that is California trying to wag the dog, if manufacturers can just build the right products I'm sure EVs will be back.

Maybe cars like the forthcoming Jaguar BEV will help get some traction going again.
 
#5 ·
Well there are statistics but they do not tell us anything without a few more facts. Just lazy journalists giving one side of a story to create a bit of interest. Classic reporter lore says they should always include the 4 W's who,what,where and WHY. Usually the why is missing. Poor information ? Poor Rapid chargers Poor battery reliability ? Gas cars undercutting. A more useful statistic would be number of electric cars on the road is that declining or increasing ? Such as this in the UK (from Wiki):-

Image


Richard
 
#7 · (Edited by Moderator)
Lots of fun to be had with statisics. The trade ins in 2016 were also presumeably older cars that are a totally different kettle of fish to the current EV's. It could also be that 4 EV's were traded in and only one of those bought a new EV.

I think the reports of the death of the EV are somewhat exagerated.

Richard
 
#10 ·
I read an analysis of a similar article and it pointed out that the statistic was arrived at by adding together hybrid and EV owners going back to ICEs. In fact, if you analyse the details, while many hybrid owners did go back to ICE (and it's not a big jump) many went to EVs instead. And why not include the statistic about ICE owners going to EVs (it's clearly happening at a decent rate). So it's all about the agenda when you're using statistics.
 
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#11 ·
People who already have an electric car are the early adopters & presumably very keen EV folks. 75% of them moving away from EVs is somewhat horrific.
If believers are not convinced, why should non believers be convinced.
I am not at all surprised at this. Electric vehicle range is still very low and charging infrastructure not well developed. A lot of people, like those people trading in, believe. It is just that the reality of owning an electric car today does not live up to what people need or want. It is still very early days and we are all pioneers and early adopters. Some of those pioneers, like myself, cannot live or do not want to live with the short range electric vehicles of today as their main car.

I traded in my Nissan Leaf (I had a mark one and then a mark two) for about five years but during that time I always had an ICE as my second car. Now I only need one car I cannot live with the Leaf. I could easily have gone back to an ICE but instead I have an Ampera. This is the perfect car for me as I wish to drive electric but need the convenience and range of an ICE.

I believe that in the short to medium term PHEVs will be the way forward until BEV range improves and the charging infrastructure is properly developed preventing the need for planning before leaving the house.

Personally, I don't see this as a setback just an inevitable consequence of the technology of today and it may go backwards before going forwards.
 
#13 ·
I picked up a ''TIME'' magazine (dated August 2016). I found a very disturbing statistic.
75% of Americans who traded in a Hybrid or electric car in 2016 took home an all gas car.
This is a very negative sign.
Benjamin Disraeli - “There are three kinds of lies:lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
and yet there are nearly 400,000 pre-orders for the Tesla model 3-
I'm not disturbed , whilst I had wanted to run a Plug-in EV for some time , it's only this year that a vehicle my useage and the budget ( used < 15K ) came available .

Cost & Range are the key factors for BEV's , whilst new PHEV's are appearing now on a weekly basis - Kia- Hyundai ..etc

when Models appear that do not not compromise in cost and/ or range it will be a different story. ( as long as that story isn't reported by only stating the statistics that suit the publisher ..)
 
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#15 ·
US petrol has much less tax than Europe so a halving of oil prices seen over the last few years equals a halving of petrol prices and if petrol were not taxed the price per mile of an ice is suddenly not that different to an ev when oil is this cheap.
 
#17 ·
Europe has a history of high petrol prices going back to the early days of motoring, and the simple fact then that all road fuel had to be imported. It's why European cars long had more fuel efficient engines and even why cars were smaller. The trend has carried on even into the present time as Gov. has become dependent on the Tax raised.
The good effect coming from this has been that EVs currently work out very slightly cheaper per mile than even frugal diesel cars. In the USA they have no chance.
Put quite simply , sales of EVs rely on Government action on several levels.
 
#18 ·
It can sometimes be easier if we look at a tiny market. Sales in Ireland are down 18% year in year because there is a rumor that owners might have to pay for the electricity. Imagine if Govts gave free petrol for ICE cars...
Charging 'on hold' as electric vehicle sales slide - Independent.ie.

The actual number of EVs sold in Ireland was 355 in the first 8 months of 2016. 355 people in an entire country of nearly 5 million people might actually be willing to sacrifice something to improve the environment. The other 4.9999 Million just talk about it.

Speaking of Ireland. If the Govt actually took the EUR14B plus interest that is should have collected from Apple in taxes (& that it is refusing to take!!) it could do one of 2 things...
A. It could buy about 700,000 EVs & give them out free to people. I guess that would come close to replacing the entire car pool in Ireland. The green Island would really become green !
B. It could donate the money to Elon Musk & it might fund Tesla losses for another 2 years.. From Apple to Tesla via Ireland..

Being more serious, it does seem people are very fickle about EVs. If Governments are willing to give a lot of free money citizens might buy an EV. Take away the free money & citizens go back to ICE. The reason for buying EVs has to change.
 
#19 ·
It can sometimes be easier if we look at a tiny market. Sales in Ireland are down 18% year in year because there is a rumor that owners might have to pay for the electricity. Imagine if Govts gave free petrol for ICE cars...
Charging 'on hold' as electric vehicle sales slide - Independent.ie.

The actual number of EVs sold in Ireland was 355 in the first 8 months of 2016. 355 people in an entire country of nearly 5 million people might actually be willing to sacrifice something to improve the environment. The other 4.9999 Million just talk about it.

Speaking of Ireland. If the Govt actually took the EUR14B plus interest that is should have collected from Apple in taxes (& that it is refusing to take!!) it could do one of 2 things...
A. It could buy about 700,000 EVs & give them out free to people. I guess that would come close to replacing the entire car pool in Ireland. The green Island would really become green !
B. It could donate the money to Elon Musk & it might fund Tesla losses for another 2 years.. From Apple to Tesla via Ireland..

Being more serious, it does seem people are very fickle about EVs. If Governments are willing to give a lot of free money citizens might buy an EV. Take away the free money & citizens go back to ICE. The reason for buying EVs has to change.
Or you could just look at the real sales figures?
 
#22 ·
Aha. My initial point was not about overall EV sales. The point was about the % of EV owners who allegedly turn back to ICE. I am not defending TIME, maybe it is propaganda. Car sales YTD in the USA are 10.16 Million Units. Over 10 Million units are ICE. 93K are plug in..
What I find disturbing is that if the tiny % of people who buy EVs now do not stay with EVs, it will take a very long time for EVs to get any traction at all..
I was really wondering is anyone had any other statistics for other countries showing the % of plug in owners who stay with plug in.. More data from more countries would allow us to form a better opinion. It would debunk or give credence to the TIME article
 
#23 ·
The OP stated that it was people turning from Hybrid to pure ICE so they are unlikely to have been very committed in the first place. If the Prius, in the main a non plug in pseudo EV, was included in the figures the report really proves nothing as many petrol ICE have better fuel economy than the Prius so who would buy a second one? With TIME behind a paywall we cannot easily verify the article.
 
#24 ·
I think you'd need to get hold of the actual data set to get to the bottom of it.

However, people trading in their hybrid are likely to not really care if it's a pure ICE or hybrid. Proportionately, there won't be many EVs to trade in as there weren't that many around 2-3 years ago.

I think Time are just being selective with the day to get a good story.
 
#25 ·
I found the TIME magazine. The article is written by Justin Worland & the source quoted is Edmunds car data. I have found the link here http://www.edmunds.com/about/press/ev-and-hybrid-loyalty-falls-to-all-time-low-even-as-overall-fuel-economy-thrives-says-edmundscom.html
The sample is 5724 cars. The stats indicate that loyalty rates are falling. In their 2015 data 38.5% traded a hybrid or EV for a hybrid or EV. In 2016, that fell to 27.5%

It would be interesting to see if data is available in other countries.
 
#26 ·
Reading the article and then checking Gas Price Charts - GasBuddy.com might go a long way towards explaining the reason for the move of loyalty. Check the chart over a four year period for the clearest result.
It would seem that simple price is the main driving force.
It somewhat reinforces the simple fact that it needs Government action to clean up traffic pollution, or any other sort of pollution .
 
#28 ·
75% of Americans who traded in a Hybrid or electric car in 2016 took home an all gas car.
As has been stated, the research being quoted is from Edmunds.com, and it's very poor research.

Edmunds' Blurs Lines: Hybrids And Electric Cars "Struggle To Maintain Owner Loyalty"

It's important to note that the research makes two substantial flaws:

1) It lumps non-plug-in hybrids such as the Prius with plug-in hybrids such as the Volt, and...

2) It only looks at trade-ins and does not factor-in owners who are keeping their car or who leased the car.

We don't know the demographic of the 5000+ trade-ins surveyed, but given that the Toyota Prius has far greater numbers than any plug-in we can safely assume that most of the survey was reviewing Prius trade-ins and not EVs.

It's well-established that customer satisfaction among Chevy Volt and Nissan LEAF owners is very, very high. It's extremely unlikely that these satisfied owners will be trading-in their vehicle for a non-plug-in vehicle. However...

As fuel prices in the US have come down significantly from where they were a few years ago, it's not surprising that many Prius-like hybrid owners will be trading-in those vehicles in order to purchase something different.

If the research were trying to be accurate it would not have lumped-together plug-in and non-plug-in vehicles into the same category, and it would have factored-in owners who were not trading-in their vehicle as a sign of consumer loyalty. The flaws in the presentation of the research are so obvious that one could be justified in thinking that there is intentional bias involved there.

Electric vehicle sales are running out of gas | Tesla Motors
 
#29 ·
As has been stated, the research being quoted is from Edmunds.com, and it's very poor research.

Edmunds' Blurs Lines: Hybrids And Electric Cars "Struggle To Maintain Owner Loyalty"

It's important to note that the research makes two substantial flaws:

1) It lumps non-plug-in hybrids such as the Prius with plug-in hybrids such as the Volt, and...

2) It only looks at trade-ins and does not factor-in owners who are keeping their car or who leased the car.

We don't know the demographic of the 5000+ trade-ins surveyed, but given that the Toyota Prius has far greater numbers than any plug-in we can safely assume that most of the survey was reviewing Prius trade-ins and not EVs.

It's well-established that customer satisfaction among Chevy Volt and Nissan LEAF owners is very, very high. It's extremely unlikely that these satisfied owners will be trading-in their vehicle for a non-plug-in vehicle. However...

As fuel prices in the US have come down significantly from where they were a few years ago, it's not surprising that many Prius-like hybrid owners will be trading-in those vehicles in order to purchase something different.

If the research were trying to be accurate it would not have lumped-together plug-in and non-plug-in vehicles into the same category, and it would have factored-in owners who were not trading-in their vehicle as a sign of consumer loyalty. The flaws in the presentation of the research are so obvious that one could be justified in thinking that there is intentional bias involved there.

Electric vehicle sales are running out of gas | Tesla Motors
There is another study here https://technology.ihs.com/577295/editorial-ihs-data-show-us-registrations-of-evs-and-hevs-falling-loyalty-under-50

Again the headline is negative & again they seem to lump all hybrids together. Maybe there is built in bias. It seems to say Prius loyalty is very high. It only deals with stats up to 2015 & 2 months of 2016.
I suppose with pure EVs market share at 0.3-0.4% the loyalty of existing owners does not mater so much. More ''new'' people need to be brought into the market. Difficult to comment on the hybrid number at 2..1% as it seems to include ''everything''. The EU usually has statistic on everything but I can not find EU data on this.
Americans love big cars, petrol is cheap & driving distances are long. I suppose it will be one of the last countries to embrace EVs. My feeling is that China will be the first big country to really embrace EVs & if they do they will hopefully also drive costs low enough so EVs can compete without the need for Govt subsidies.
It usually takes a big crisis to change attitudes. EVs should get bet better every year so if there are good products in the market when the next ''shock'' comes hopefully the percentages will shoot up..
 
#32 ·
I picked up a ''TIME'' magazine (dated August 2016). I found a very disturbing statistic.
75% of Americans who traded in a Hybrid or electric car in 2016 took home an all gas car.
This is a very negative sign. People who already have an electric car are the early adopters & presumably very keen EV folks. 75% of them moving away from EVs is somewhat horrific. If believers are not convinced, why should non believers be convinced. The fact that it applies to Hybrids is even more disturbing as a hybrid does not suffer from range issues.
The Norway model of just making the incentives so big that people are willing to not have the car they actually want is not sustainable.
Does anyone have statistics for the number people in other countries who stay with EVs when they trade in their first EV?
It's the US. They don't really get the climate change thing....and the stress on people financially is something people in countries with more evolved welfare and health care systems don't fully understand. The US is unravelling after 40 years of failed neo-liberal policiy settings in a context where most people had very little protection from adversity in the first place. People "wanting" gas guzzlers is a sign the understanding of climate change is very, very low. That is a politcal problem...and in many ways a cognitive problem. The US is worst affected among developed nations by this apparent inability to understand the evidence and move to do something about it. Perhaps pervasive religion there has conditioned people to have 'faith" and ignore reality in more realms than the spiritual. Mental habits are mental habits.

It's not pretty. Trump and this are just two symptoms among many.
 
#34 ·
It's the US.
I don't even know where to start with a reply here, but fanning anti-American sentiment is not only counter-productive but wrong.

The articles and the research behind the articles are misleading. They basically say that among hybrid and EV trade-ins a large number of them are subsequently buying something that is not hybrid or EV. The article would like to interpret that information to say that EV owners are dissatisfied with their EVs and so go back to a fuel-efficient ICE, but based on such flimsy evidence that is just simply speculative on the journalists' part.

So, while there may be some limited merit to your anti-American sentiments this article and this research are poor evidence to substantiate the anti-American vibe.

Remember that Tesla is an American car company. Remember that without California (in America) laws there would have been very little financial incentive for Tesla to exist. The GM Volt and Nissan LEAF were reactions to Tesla's existence. GM is an American car company, also.

Yes, the US is home to Donald Trump and a whole lot of Trump supporters. Yes, it's insane. But, Brexit was craziness, too. The social conditions that have buoyed Trump exist in many countries across the globe and are affecting many nations beside simply the Yankees.
 
#33 ·
What has puzzled me for many years is why the homebrew EV car industry flourished in the US when the country has low gasoline prices and huge distances. Europe always seemed a more natural home. Perhaps Americans love technology and diy built cars. I once bought a Propane duel fuel RV in the states and found the propane more expensive than gasoline and that was not taking into account the 80% calorific content. It puzzled me as to why it had been built in the 70s as I recall. I asked a fellow RV driver at a rest stop and he told me it was the first Oil crisis when 100 gallon tank RV were unwelcome to fill up Winebago did it to continue selling RVs.
 
#35 ·
Remember too we have had people on this forum describe how they have come over to the UK from Ireland to buy their EV as the price was cheaper. And with the exchange rate increasing in benefit for Eire many may just pop over the border to Northern Ireland to buy their EV distorting the figures.

Also, we are in a time where 200 plus mile affordable EV's are confidently expected soon - so many likely waiting for that.
 
#36 ·
Also, we are in a time where 200 plus mile affordable EV's are confidently expected soon - so many likely waiting for that.
I'm waiting for the cries of disappointment when they won't get close. I really wish people would stop overselling ev range. A 200mi NEDC ev is not a car that should be sold as being able to do 200 miles. Use the heater and it's miles off. Need some spare battery to actually get to a charger and it's less again. Charge to 80% and it's far less again. Deplete the battery over a few years and equivalent mileage and it drops again and so on.
Why don't they learn? People fell for the adverts the first time because ev's were a new thing to them. A lot of the trade-in's for ice are likely due to the car not doing what they were told it would. I was promised sincerely a 24kWh Leaf would easily do the NEDC numbers by the salesman just before running it from full to flat (pushing flat) in 55 miles. I told him my use pattern and exactly what I wanted it for and still he put it across that I would get that.
If ev sellers and fans are going to keep regurgitating a best case scenario as if it's the norm people are going to be disappointed and that will then put them off getting another ev anytime soon.

I can't believe anyone on here thinks people would buy an ev based on fuel prices unless there was some kind of crisis going on - where does that idea come from? Who goes into a dealer looking for a car and checks petrol prices on the way there?
A lot of people got an ev because of dealer BS and massive incentives which meant they could "afford" a much more expensive car than they could actually afford. Those incentives aren't there anymore so the appeal is far less. People who have experienced how an ev actually works rather than listening to the men in cheap suits will have soon found out that in winter that NEDC figure is a big stretch of the imagination and that in the real world you don't drive a car until it's completely flat so what range is there isn't all available unless you want to play battery roulette every time you want to get near it.
As for a charging network - having a laugh? A few chargers scattered about in various places which you need various apps, cards, subscriptions or whatever if you want to stand a chance of charging but then it's not guaranteed and can cost more than fueling an ice even if it does work?
Then there's the actual cost. There is usually around ÂŁ5-10k difference for an ev over an equivalent ice with the ice usually holding more residual value. The average is currently 8000 miles a year and most people have a car 2-3 years. 2yrs/8k in a modern diesel will cost around ÂŁ1350 in fuel. The same in an ev around ÂŁ400 of electric. That's a ÂŁ950 saving presuming 8p/kWh electric.
Even after putting 80k on it, the diesel would have cost ÂŁ6600 and the ev ÂŁ1600.
So presuming cheap rate electricity, presuming you get a great deal and there's only ÂŁ5k difference in price and presuming you can sell an 80k, 10 year old ev for at least as much as an 80k, 10 year old diesel (best of luck with that when it's missing a couple of battery bars and only does 40miles on a charge), you break even after 10 years.

People may come across as stupid but they can count and it just doesn't add up.

Show me an ev that's ÂŁ15k-ÂŁ20k, does a genuine 250+miles on a charge and can add 80% in 5-10 mins anywhere in the country and I'll show you a replacement for almost every ice out there.

Infact show me a charging network where you don't have to go looking for chargers, can pull up and charge, pay with whatever you like then leave and I'll show you a way to get a lot more people interested in ev's.
 
#40 ·
3000 Teslas currently, supercharger network that's currently getting queue's and going offline but somehow that's all going to be rosy when 20k+ cars a year start getting added to it? They can announce what they like but coming from a company that's got massive debt and has already missed on delivery times, build quality and so on in the past, I'll not hold my breath.
Yawn. You really do have a chip on your shoulder about Tesla.

Anyhow, I'm driving to Wales tomorrow for free, and I'll likely have no trouble charging...normally wouldn't consider the trip, but I have Autopilot.
 
#41 ·
No chip on my shoulder and I don't need to listen to digs from fanboys trying to ignore the plain and simple issues right infront of their faces.
Sorry if what I'm seeing in black and white doesn't fit in with your "insider information" :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Edit - I love the man maths aswell - "I'm traveling for free" - how much was the car again? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
#43 ·
It`s probably down to fracking and the huge drop in oil prices,they will be back once the short term cheep oil and gas runs out,there is no way oil and gas can compete in the long term.
If oil and gas cant compete with BEV it will become cheaper as there will be a supply glut......and bring prices down somewhat until the supply/demand is similar. So as BEV become popular the difference in running costs may become closer....especially in the USA and other countries with low taxation on Petrol & diesel.

Also what is missing is the proportion of new sales that are EVs as a percentage of the entire car market. That also gives another picture. You may have rising EV sales but a falling market share.
Unless the total UK car sales have went up around 1000% since 2011 then BEV are not losing market share. 2016 YTD figures I seen were a 3% growth in the car market, with a 10% increase in BEV (over 2015)
 
#46 ·
I'm completely with you on that. The point was more that purely from a range and ease of finding fuel/speed of filling POV it absolutely hammers even the best bev currently available. The car is utter rubbish but you can drive it where you like when you like - presuming you can fight back the feeling of sickness from remembering what you're in.
 
#48 ·
I can't believe anyone on here thinks people would buy an ev based on fuel prices unless there was some kind of crisis going on - where does that idea come from? Who goes into a dealer looking for a car and checks petrol prices on the way there?
Purchasing and driving an EV is largely an economical decision for many people. When petrol prices are higher it makes the economics lean towards the EV.

As you point out, you can buy a lot of petrol or diesel for the price premium on most EVs. However, what I'm saying is that when petrol prices are higher then that becomes a bigger factor than when petrol is inexpensive. It won't sway every potential car buyer, but it will sway some to make an EV purchase decision.
 
#49 ·
It may in America but over here we have had massive tax on fuel for almost as long as we have had fuel altogether. Even when we get price increases way higher than over there it makes far less overall difference. We also generally use smaller cars over smaller distances so we pay high for low use already. Since that's what we're used to it's not a shock when another 20p goes on a gallon. On the other hand our car prices make ev's look a very expensive option and the way most people now buy leaves it in the hands of the finance companies as to what will sell.
We had offers on the Leaf that effectively made it as cheap to own over 3 years as an ice when you include all that "free" fuel. Of course that was completely unsustainable and has now stopped until the next batch of adverts on wheels need despatching but it has left us with the reality of prices which are nowhere near competitive even after a decent government grant.
Until makers stop the greed and put ev's out at a reasonable price this will continue.
 
#52 ·
Nope - greed is based on what cars cost to make. Manufacturers have economy of scale on ice cars which makes them seem cheaper to make but in reality an ev requires a lot less parts and most of them also cost less to mass produce.
I'll use an E-golf as an example just because it's the first thing off the top of my head that shares ev and ice in a very similar car.
The ev needs a big battery, motor, BMS and controller over the ice. It's single speed drive is effectively just a diff mated to the output shaft with a gear.
The ice needs a gearbox - in an auto that's a dsg so quite complicated and needs a lot of parts and electronics to control. That alone would cost far more to develop and make than the ev motor and driveline. Then it needs an engine - lets say a diesel - which involves precision machining, many toleranced parts, a few different metals which all need development to make sure it can all work under different loads/temperatures, a decent cooling system so radiator, fan, water pump, electronics to control it, a fuel system so tank, pump, hpfp, lines, injectors, rail, many more electronics and calibration, an air system so vnt turbo, manifolds, intercooler, more electronics to control it all, exhaust and emissions control so egr, dpf, cat(s), adblue system, egr cooler, more electronics, an alternator, starter motor, engine ecu(s) and probably a load of other things I have missed.
Every single item would also need testing and stamping to be allowed on the car so there are r&d savings by having far less components too.

Even if you add up the individual price of parts it soon becomes obvious makers are taking the mick with the pricing - probably to take advantage of the government grants and "free" electricity - both arguments I've seen dealers use to make it look like the car is a good deal.

If they were playing fair an ev even at small production levels should be no more expensive than an equivalent ice. When it's going into a mass produced bodyshell that only needs minor changes as in the Golf they're just having a laugh.
ÂŁ24k for a tdi dsg, ÂŁ31k for the E. ÂŁ7k more for something that would cost less to make.
 
#56 · (Edited)
Nope - greed is based on what cars cost to make. Manufacturers have economy of scale on ice cars which makes them seem cheaper to make but in reality an ev requires a lot less parts and most of them also cost less to mass produce.
I'll use an E-golf as an example just because it's the first thing off the top of my head that shares ev and ice in a very similar car.
The ev needs a big battery, motor, BMS and controller over the ice. It's single speed drive is effectively just a diff mated to the output shaft with a gear.
The ice needs a gearbox - in an auto that's a dsg so quite complicated and needs a lot of parts and electronics to control. That alone would cost far more to develop and make than the ev motor and driveline. Then it needs an engine - lets say a diesel - which involves precision machining, many toleranced parts, a few different metals which all need development to make sure it can all work under different loads/temperatures, a decent cooling system so radiator, fan, water pump, electronics to control it, a fuel system so tank, pump, hpfp, lines, injectors, rail, many more electronics and calibration, an air system so vnt turbo, manifolds, intercooler, more electronics to control it all, exhaust and emissions control so egr, dpf, cat(s), adblue system, egr cooler, more electronics, an alternator, starter motor, engine ecu(s) and probably a load of other things I have missed.
Every single item would also need testing and stamping to be allowed on the car so there are r&d savings by having far less components too.

Even if you add up the individual price of parts it soon becomes obvious makers are taking the mick with the pricing - probably to take advantage of the government grants and "free" electricity - both arguments I've seen dealers use to make it look like the car is a good deal.

If they were playing fair an ev even at small production levels should be no more expensive than an equivalent ice. When it's going into a mass produced bodyshell that only needs minor changes as in the Golf they're just having a laugh.
ÂŁ24k for a tdi dsg, ÂŁ31k for the E. ÂŁ7k more for something that would cost less to make.

Oh and remember even if it cost $250/kWh that big battery is only $6k worth. Or about the price of the fuel system on the tdi.
Why you class the battery as one component, but an engine is a sum of all the individual parts?!? Batteries have hundreds of parts....and many cars have all the associated active cooling systems. They are at least as complex as, and certainly more expensive to replace should it need to be done under warranty compared to an ICE which is a very well understood technology with large manufacturing capacity and 95% of all the technology/R&D has been paid off.

The fuel system on a golf will be a a couple hundred pounds at the most for VW, a tank, some lines 2 pumps and 4 injectors and a few misc pieces. Certainly nowhere near $6,000 that you suggest, or equivalent to a battery.

If it was a profitable business we would have a few start up companies making waves in the car world......however we don't....there is only Tesla and they're only around because they have extremely deep pockets.

It took them 10 years to post a small profit....before returning to unprofitably where it has remained to date. Of course they're doing other things too and claim the cars as a stand alone business is profitable.

I think "the greed" relates to the petrol/diesel side of manufacturers business?
We should be thanking ICE drivers for subsidising all the BEV drivers ;)