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Will Kia improve DC charging rate or change prices?

12K views 51 replies 23 participants last post by  interbear  
#1 · (Edited)
With more and more competition arriving this year and early next, Kia/Hyundai are at risk of the Niro and Kona being massively overtaken with regards to charging speeds and also the price of the car to start with.

The majority of the cars with which the Niro is competing have a minimum of 100kW charging rate and most have more at between 125 and 135kW. And charging curves that are also often better, so it's not just about the raw throughput.

There are more models that are priced more keenly, even accounting for the quality of build and level of technology.

So was wondering what the thought here might be as to whether Kia will do anything about this.
They could adjust, via software, the charging rate. As the 400V system is perfectly capable of more.

As owners, in a few years time, we may be left with a dinosaur. Overtaken by models like the Ford Explorer, we'll be sitting on an asset that no one will want for part exchange etc.

As the component shortages continue to ease, and more manufacturing comes online, this will only get worse.
 
owns 2025 Kia EV6 GT-Line S
#3 ·
Much as I'd like to see ongoing support for systems in cars, it isn't going to happen. We'll be lucky to see any updates to the head unit once it's legacy, so long as the BMS is working as designed they're not going to update it. If you want a released update on your Zoe ZE50 you have to complain about range...

I don't think anything is a stop gap as such, all these cars are products that are what they are. Could it better with a tweak? Yes, probably, especially as new data becomes available about battery performance over time. Does that mean Hyundai Kia are going to put forward an update that allows, for example, faster charging? Almost certainly not.

I'd expected at three years to trade in the e-Niro for an EV6 but the costs of doing that are laughable so we're just going to keep it. There's only been one occasion when I really wished I could have charged faster.
 
#4 ·
Tend to agree with the points raised above. I can't see it happening given Kia will want to differentiate across the range.

If you're staying with the Kia brand for any future trade-in that might be of some help, although I think they mostly use Cap HPI Valuations so perhaps it won't make much difference.

I've used public charging 3 times. And on 2 of those occasions, it was slow and indeed slower than I expected at 43kW for pretty much the entire charging time. Not a challenge on those occasions, and hopefully won't be for future family trips as we'll plan around it.
Would just be nice if they can tweak the car, without affecting their range options for say EV5 (or EV4 depending on which one now gets released first after the EV9), that they might go ahead and do this. Unlikely I'm sure...
 
owns 2025 Kia EV6 GT-Line S
#31 ·
Tend to agree with the points raised above. I can't see it happening given Kia will want to differentiate across the range.

If you're staying with the Kia brand for any future trade-in that might be of some help, although I think they mostly use Cap HPI Valuations so perhaps it won't make much difference.

I've used public charging 3 times. And on 2 of those occasions, it was slow and indeed slower than I expected at 43kW for pretty much the entire charging time. Not a challenge on those occasions, and hopefully won't be for future family trips as we'll plan around it.
Would just be nice if they can tweak the car, without affecting their range options for say EV5 (or EV4 depending on which one now gets released first after the EV9), that they might go ahead and do this. Unlikely I'm sure...
Hmmm. I have used fast chargers during my (winter) trip to Switserland (from the Netherlands) and I got > 50 kW consistently. Not the whole time, but the difference in charging time with my summer trip to Switserland (both 1000 km) was a mere 30 minutes total with three charging stops. Which means 10 minutes extra charging time.
 
#6 ·
Nope, not doing anything wrong as that's sort of what you get.
When I asked my dealer about this and what they get themselves as many have EVs as their company vehicles, they said pretty much the same. If you get 50% of the quoted charging speed in the colder winter months you're doing well.

I won't need to use public charging often, so it's not the end of the world. But it is frustrating and may make a difference if I have to make an emergency trip for an elderly family member who lives about 100 miles away if I don't have the charge to get there directly.

Just be nice if Kia would say, you know what we've looked at the data from the car and battery and we can be a little less conservative with our charging. Not necessarily for it to be more than the 80kW or whatever it is now, but rather to say they can adjust the curve to be say 60kW for anything under 70%. As an example. Just a bit better is all we're asking.
 
owns 2025 Kia EV6 GT-Line S
#8 ·
Whilst that is what ABRP states, I think what we're saying is that the real-world experience in the Niro EV is lower than even the pessimistic view that ABRP gives.

I agree it feels slow when you're sitting there waiting. The 'problem' is that Kia's own advertising of the Niro EV says 10% to 80% is 43 minutes off a 350kW charger and 1 hour 5 minutes off a 50kW charger. Neither of these is achievable even with the battery pre-conditioning using a charger as destination/POI. But likely they will be closer to being achievable in summer.
Image



Because the EV6 has a larger battery, it takes longer on the 50kW charger than the Niro EV.
Image
 
owns 2025 Kia EV6 GT-Line S
#9 ·
It's also worth pointing out that Kia and Hyundai have made some very efficient drivetrains. Even if your car only accepts charge at 43kW, you won't be waiting around for as long on a road trip than a less efficient vehicle that could charge a bit faster.
My own car can charge at up to 100kW. Most of the time it gets nowhere near that. It's also a less efficient vehicle than an e-Niro.
 
#10 ·
Personally, anything above 50kWh charging is good but way above that is not really realistic in the world I live in.

Most charging done at home - 7kWH standard or if you’re a fancy-Dan 11kWh.

Some charging done at public chargers - lucky if you get a fraction of what you asked for so up to 50kWh-77kWh is a win.

Higher than that the cost to charge is ridiculous and I’d rather not, thanks.

In my real world experience higher DC charging rates are not a game changer. If 150-350kWh EVSE’s were plentiful and sensibly priced I’d not have bought a Kia Niro EV….but they’re not so I did. 🤓👍
 
#52 ·
Personally, anything above 50kWh charging is good but way above that is not really realistic in the world I live in.

Most charging done at home - 7kWH standard or if you’re a fancy-Dan 11kWh.

Some charging done at public chargers - lucky if you get a fraction of what you asked for so up to 50kWh-77kWh is a win.

Higher than that the cost to charge is ridiculous and I’d rather not, thanks.

In my real world experience higher DC charging rates are not a game changer. If 150-350kWh EVSE’s were plentiful and sensibly priced I’d not have bought a Kia Niro EV….but they’re not so I did. 🤓👍
My thoughts exactly and why I’ve just ordered a Niro EV to replace our e-208. In reality 90% of our charging is overnight at home so the need for rapid charging is limited. I think many EV owners will have a similar use case.
 
#11 ·
Has anyone on this forum achieved anything near the quoted maximum charging rate for the new Niro EV? What is the maximum you have achieved? We have charged twice on 150kw chargers here in Australia in Autumn, say 17-19C, and the maximum we got starting from a 40kwh SOC was 45kw and the second was after battery preconditioning. I have to say I am disappointed. I read all the reviews, watched all the Youtube reviews, and while all said it was slower than its competitors, they quoted the 10-80% time of 43 minutes and a maximum charge rate of 80kw. I was happy with the 43 minute time, but there is no way I can see our Niro meeting that based on its performance for us to date.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I had an ID3 for 2 years and wasn’t overly happy with it (brakes, handling) and also knew the used prices were about to tumble.
Looking around, with eyes wide open, the Niro EV was the best all rounder for my needs. I accept it’s near end of life and the charging speed isn’t great but I rarely got over 50kwh in the ID3 tbh (I don’t typically drive to low SOC).
Im sure I will lose a stack on this car but I will wait until something really good comes along, nothing on the horizon so far, and will just enjoy my Niro EV in the meantime!
 
#15 ·
I've got 56kw a few times after battery pre conditioning. Never seen anything over 60. Hopefully it will improve with the weather.

Tbh, now that, post covid, we are (slowly) getting back to visiting customers in person on occasion, it would be the one thing about the car that might make me itch to change early. If the EV4 comes out next year and is a real game changer with 800v architecture, I could be sorely tempted to be stupid and write off another chunk of depreciation. It does depend though on just how much. The used prices right now are gut wrenchingly bad. Might be keeping it for years yet ;)

It's rarely a big deal. I just time it with when I'd stop anyway to eat. But it could be so much better.
 
#19 ·
I've got 56kw a few times after battery pre conditioning. Never seen anything over 60. Hopefully it will improve with the weather.

Tbh, now that, post covid, we are (slowly) getting back to visiting customers in person on occasion, it would be the one thing about the car that might make me itch to change early. If the EV4 comes out next year and is a real game changer with 800v architecture, I could be sorely tempted to be stupid and write off another chunk of depreciation. It does depend though on just how much. The used prices right now are gut wrenchingly bad. Might be keeping it for years yet ;)

It's rarely a big deal. I just time it with when I'd stop anyway to eat. But it could be so much better.
I was actually considering the EV4 but the timeframe was wrong and I’m a bit concerned the car will just look too ‘boxy’ as well as perhaps too big.
On the horizon the only thing that has taken my eye is the new ID2, polo EV. Although downsizing that far might be a push and VW p#%^d me off with my ID3 brake issues.
 
#16 ·
I've had 75kW in my 2 a few times. One of those it was quite cold too. Didn't seem to stay there long though.
I have noticed that when the charge starts it will typically ramp quickly up to about 70kW, then immediately settle down to a lower figure.
 
#21 · (Edited)
My best ever was 55kW but that was for literally 2 or 3 minutes. My "real" best is 43kW. This was off a 350kW GridServe charger and I was the only one initially using any of the 8 they had, with a starting SoC of 37%
The trend with those posting higher rates is either much warmer conditions or a starting SoC under 20%.

The Niro EV charge curve is shared again below for ease of reference. Something I think we're all basically saying is rarely if ever achieved.
Image
 
owns 2025 Kia EV6 GT-Line S
#24 ·
Quite often the issue is the charger, or rather the supply to the charger. Quite a few of the 100+kW chargers are still supply limited. I’ve seen 77kW before, all in line with the fastned published curve. Resolutely sticking around 43-47kW sounds like a 100A limit and is what I’ve always seen on a 50kW charger. The most recent DC charge was on a charger rated 150kW and the car took a peak of 55kW which again was bang on the chart shared by @dirk362

the worst we’ve seen was at an Instavolt in Edinburgh, very cold morning, charger was our first point of call. Started out at 18kW and climbed up to 43 or so over 30 mins as the battery warmed up. Was quite concerning to start with as we hadn’t factored in that sort of speed but wasn’t too bad in the end.

It did leave me thinking this must much more of an issue in colder countries.
 
#25 ·
I stopped for a bladder break 30 miles from home at 21% charge and popped it onto a charger for a few minutes. Did 65kW which I thought was OK given ambient temperature is 8C at the moment. That was after just over an hour at 70mph mind.
 
#26 ·
I have a 2021 e-Niro for over a year now and done about 14K miles and although I haven't done a lot of public charging I have found that I have only ever got close to the suggested max charge rate of 77kW a couple of times on chargers that are advertised as providing way more. On a couple of occasions I even started to wonder if I had a problem with the car. I don't think I have. So having a car that is supposed to be able to charge at a much higher rate is only worthwhile if you can actually get that rate and I can't say that I do very othen. Most of my charging is at around 50kW even on the vary rapid chargers at MSAs (I know some only can do 50kW - or more like 42kW actually... I always chose chargers that can charge faster that 50kW if I can).
 
#27 ·
Obviously the other 2 key factors are State of Charge and battery temperature.
I try to be a little less risk averse and take it nearer 20% SOC, although poor on the road infrastructure doesn’t help with that mentally. Also, I always use battery conditioning via the satnav to target chargers (on the new Niro EV.)
 
#29 ·
Agreed.
We all have a healthy dose of cynicism for any manufacturer's stated WLTP figures, and I guess we have to do the same with charging times and throughput. At least for the colder months of the year wherever we live.

Due to when the Niro EV was released and owners started to actually receive them, at least in the UK, we've not yet had any properly decent whether to gauge it against. That should hopefully change by the end of next month.
 
owns 2025 Kia EV6 GT-Line S
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#34 · (Edited)
The equipment and technology in the Niro EV are capable of charging at a higher capacity. But Kia has opted to be conservative and define a specific charging curve and rate to best optimise their platform without undue degradation to the HV batteries. And this includes where the use of battery pre-conditioning is used via SatNav to get the HV battery to a more optimal temperature to help improve that charging amount/curve.

All I was saying is that Kia could if they so chose, increase the charge rate without putting a material increase in risk elsewhere in the energy chain on the other components and the HV batteries themselves.

It depends on the kit, but the HV batteries in the new Niro EV are not the same as the ones in the first generation e-Niro, and indeed these newer batteries are not unique to the Niro EV. They are used on other vehicles outside the Hyundai Motor Group, and they can take a slightly higher charge rate.
I was not suggesting a massive increase, but one from the 80kW stated maximum to say a 100kW stated maximum.

But as many have pointed out, and indeed I also believe, Kia will never do this on the Kia Niro. They have defined the model and that is how it will stay. Partly because it's a constant over the life of the model and partly to differentiate it from other electric models in the range (or to be released soon).
 
owns 2025 Kia EV6 GT-Line S
#35 ·
The maximum Rapid charging speed/current is mostly limited by the internal resistance design of the battery cells used to make up the battery pack. The Voltage per cell must not ever be allowed to exceed 4.2V whilst charging. This is why cold batteries always charge much more slowly as the cells internal resistance becomes much higher when they are cold. So even when maximum allowed charging Voltage (4.2V) is applied, the internal resistance of the cells will self limit the charging current achieved. To get faster charging current (using the same design cells) would mean going above 4.2V and that is not permitted.

So in order to achieve a faster rapid charging speeds, cells with lower internal resistance by design must be used. OR use a higher Voltage battery system as in the 800V EVs. Then the charging current (Amps) required (to achieve the same power charging) is halved. Peter
 
#36 ·
So in order to achieve a faster rapid charging speeds, cells with lower internal resistance by design must be used. OR use a higher Voltage battery system as in the 800V EVs. Then the charging current (Amps) required (to achieve the same power charging) is halved
So a manufacturing decision on the constraints and cost of battery choice by Kia in selecting CATL as their battery supplier for our new Niros. See the following article on this decision to use non-Korean made battery for the first time in the Niro.

 
#39 ·
There are at least two elements at play here.
Firstly there's the manufacturer of the actual battery cells, which I believe changed in the 2nd gen Niro EV over to CATL.
Secondly, we have the Kia BMS and associated charging control units, inverters, etc.

Across those two elements, Kia has designed their overall platform. They'll have years of data upon which to base that decision (across the entire HMG) and to consider the 8-year warranty aspects for the battery. Being more cautious about charging speeds doesn't mean the car is more or less susceptible to degradation.

The CATL battery cells are almost certainly used in other vehicles. I do not know the exact pouch type, but it's clear CATL would not make a specific battery for Kia given the reason Kia moved to them in the first place was cost. So these are used elsewhere and if we can determine the model/spec we might see if other implementations have higher or different charging curves.

With regards to the rate of charge, or battery degradation conservation techniques, Kia made a conscious decision to basically maintain what they had across both 1st and 2nd gen iterations. Sure, the 2nd gen is a slightly different curve and in theory means a more consistent higher rate of charge in the lower 0 to circa 40% area. But in the real world, it seems that makes no real difference.
And Kia knows from the 4 years the 1st gen model was sold that the charge curve/speed didn't hurt its sales.

True, more cars are now available with sometimes better (on paper) charging speeds. But as has been said many times for the majority of owners who charge on their driveway/at home, this makes no difference. The odd need to rapid charge on a once-or-twice-a-year family holiday isn't the requirement you should buy your car against.

As a final observation, if you used only rapid charging and did so to 100% each time then Kia would still have to honour their HV battery warranty. Manufacturers can talk about recommendations all they like, but if the HV battery degrades they have to fulfill their warranty obligations.

Kia states for the EV/PHEV battery, in the UK, the following
The Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery warranty covers a minimum capacity for a period is 84 months or 100,000 miles from the date of first registration, whichever comes first. This warranty covers repairs needed to return the battery capacity to at least 70% of the original battery capacity. Where possible, the original: EV/PHEV Battery components will be repaired and will be returned to the vehicle. If unrepairable, the: EV/PHEV Battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery.
 
owns 2025 Kia EV6 GT-Line S
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#41 ·
I very rarely rapid charge, indeed only 3 times since owning the car from mid-January.

I've never used the pre-conditioning outside a short test, so that didn't really get the HV battery to temp.

To date, from those 3 charging sessions, the average was 43kW. There was a brief peak to 55kW on one occasion but that was short-lived at less than 2 minutes.

Those charging sessions were to take the car from somewhere in the low 30s SoC to the mid-60s SoC and in one case to 80% SoC so I could get home without another charge. So not really optimal charging sessions anyway.
 
owns 2025 Kia EV6 GT-Line S