[dirk362]

My best ever was 55kW but that was for literally 2 or 3 minutes. My "real" best is 43kW. This was off a 350kW GridServe charger and I was the only one initially using any of the 8 they had, with a starting SoC of 37%
The trend with those posting higher rates is either much warmer conditions or a starting SoC under 20%.

The Niro EV charge curve is shared again below for ease of reference. Something I think we're all basically saying is rarely if ever achieved.

 

[kamillo]

Fastend publishes charging curves for various cars.
Here is on for Kia Niro EV

 

[kamillo]

There is a video where Bjorn is comparing charge speed of Niro and some other cars. In the video he gets above 70kW

 

[idiotzoo]

Quite often the issue is the charger, or rather the supply to the charger. Quite a few of the 100+kW chargers are still supply limited. I’ve seen 77kW before, all in line with the fastned published curve. Resolutely sticking around 43-47kW sounds like a 100A limit and is what I’ve always seen on a 50kW charger. The most recent DC charge was on a charger rated 150kW and the car took a peak of 55kW which again was bang on the chart shared by @dirk362

the worst we’ve seen was at an Instavolt in Edinburgh, very cold morning, charger was our first point of call. Started out at 18kW and climbed up to 43 or so over 30 mins as the battery warmed up. Was quite concerning to start with as we hadn’t factored in that sort of speed but wasn’t too bad in the end.

It did leave me thinking this must much more of an issue in colder countries.

 

[robert79]

I stopped for a bladder break 30 miles from home at 21% charge and popped it onto a charger for a few minutes. Did 65kW which I thought was OK given ambient temperature is 8C at the moment. That was after just over an hour at 70mph mind.

 

[Snaxmuppet]

I have a 2021 e-Niro for over a year now and done about 14K miles and although I haven't done a lot of public charging I have found that I have only ever got close to the suggested max charge rate of 77kW a couple of times on chargers that are advertised as providing way more. On a couple of occasions I even started to wonder if I had a problem with the car. I don't think I have. So having a car that is supposed to be able to charge at a much higher rate is only worthwhile if you can actually get that rate and I can't say that I do very othen. Most of my charging is at around 50kW even on the vary rapid chargers at MSAs (I know some only can do 50kW - or more like 42kW actually... I always chose chargers that can charge faster that 50kW if I can).

 

[OB1CCFC]

I have a 2021 e-Niro for over a year now and done about 14K miles and although I haven't done a lot of public charging I have found that I have only ever got close to the suggested max charge rate of 77kW a couple of times on chargers that are advertised as providing way more. On a couple of occasions I even started to wonder if I had a problem with the car. I don't think I have. So having a car that is supposed to be able to charge at a much higher rate is only worthwhile if you can actually get that rate and I can't say that I do very othen. Most of my charging is at around 50kW even on the vary rapid chargers at MSAs (I know some only can do 50kW - or more like 42kW actually... I always chose chargers that can charge faster that 50kW if I can).

Obviously the other 2 key factors are State of Charge and battery temperature.
I try to be a little less risk averse and take it nearer 20% SOC, although poor on the road infrastructure doesn’t help with that mentally. Also, I always use battery conditioning via the satnav to target chargers (on the new Niro EV.)

 

[artyman]

I think charging rates are the manufacturers equivalents of mpg figures for ICE cars, works of fiction, or as in laboratory tests, but I don't drive in laboratories.

 

[dirk362]

I think charging rates are the manufacturers equivalents of mpg figures for ICE cars, works of fiction, or as in laboratory tests, but I don't drive in laboratories.

Agreed.
We all have a healthy dose of cynicism for any manufacturer's stated WLTP figures, and I guess we have to do the same with charging times and throughput. At least for the colder months of the year wherever we live.

Due to when the Niro EV was released and owners started to actually receive them, at least in the UK, we've not yet had any properly decent whether to gauge it against. That should hopefully change by the end of next month.

 

[cbroerse]

They could adjust, via software, the charging rate. As the 400V system is perfectly capable of more.

That is really, really exciting news! Do you have any proof of that?

 

[cbroerse]

Tend to agree with the points raised above. I can't see it happening given Kia will want to differentiate across the range.

If you're staying with the Kia brand for any future trade-in that might be of some help, although I think they mostly use Cap HPI Valuations so perhaps it won't make much difference.

I've used public charging 3 times. And on 2 of those occasions, it was slow and indeed slower than I expected at 43kW for pretty much the entire charging time. Not a challenge on those occasions, and hopefully won't be for future family trips as we'll plan around it.
Would just be nice if they can tweak the car, without affecting their range options for say EV5 (or EV4 depending on which one now gets released first after the EV9), that they might go ahead and do this. Unlikely I'm sure...

Hmmm. I have used fast chargers during my (winter) trip to Switserland (from the Netherlands) and I got > 50 kW consistently. Not the whole time, but the difference in charging time with my summer trip to Switserland (both 1000 km) was a mere 30 minutes total with three charging stops. Which means 10 minutes extra charging time.

 

[27897]

That is really, really exciting news! Do you have any proof of that?

Doubtful. Data on the ability to increase charge speed and maintain a warranty would be proprietary information. The packaging of the cells, and the warranty of the cell provider would also influence this.

 

[robert79]

That is really, really exciting news! Do you have any proof of that?

Doubtful. Data on the ability to increase charge speed and maintain a warranty would be proprietary information. The packaging of the cells, and the warranty of the cell provider would also influence this.

Indeed. If it was able to charge faster, why would Kia not be taking advantage of that alread?

 

[dirk362]

The equipment and technology in the Niro EV are capable of charging at a higher capacity. But Kia has opted to be conservative and define a specific charging curve and rate to best optimise their platform without undue degradation to the HV batteries. And this includes where the use of battery pre-conditioning is used via SatNav to get the HV battery to a more optimal temperature to help improve that charging amount/curve.

All I was saying is that Kia could if they so chose, increase the charge rate without putting a material increase in risk elsewhere in the energy chain on the other components and the HV batteries themselves.

It depends on the kit, but the HV batteries in the new Niro EV are not the same as the ones in the first generation e-Niro, and indeed these newer batteries are not unique to the Niro EV. They are used on other vehicles outside the Hyundai Motor Group, and they can take a slightly higher charge rate.
I was not suggesting a massive increase, but one from the 80kW stated maximum to say a 100kW stated maximum.

But as many have pointed out, and indeed I also believe, Kia will never do this on the Kia Niro. They have defined the model and that is how it will stay. Partly because it's a constant over the life of the model and partly to differentiate it from other electric models in the range (or to be released soon).

 

[prawlin]

The maximum Rapid charging speed/current is mostly limited by the internal resistance design of the battery cells used to make up the battery pack. The Voltage per cell must not ever be allowed to exceed 4.2V whilst charging. This is why cold batteries always charge much more slowly as the cells internal resistance becomes much higher when they are cold. So even when maximum allowed charging Voltage (4.2V) is applied, the internal resistance of the cells will self limit the charging current achieved. To get faster charging current (using the same design cells) would mean going above 4.2V and that is not permitted.

So in order to achieve a faster rapid charging speeds, cells with lower internal resistance by design must be used. OR use a higher Voltage battery system as in the 800V EVs. Then the charging current (Amps) required (to achieve the same power charging) is halved. Peter

 

[EVdownunder]

So in order to achieve a faster rapid charging speeds, cells with lower internal resistance by design must be used. OR use a higher Voltage battery system as in the 800V EVs. Then the charging current (Amps) required (to achieve the same power charging) is halved

So a manufacturing decision on the constraints and cost of battery choice by Kia in selecting CATL as their battery supplier for our new Niros. See the following article on this decision to use non-Korean made battery for the first time in the Niro.

Kia Niro EV to use CATL batteries | electrive.com

www.electrive.com

 

[jm31828]

The maximum Rapid charging speed/current is mostly limited by the internal resistance design of the battery cells used to make up the battery pack. The Voltage per cell must not ever be allowed to exceed 4.2V whilst charging. This is why cold batteries always charge much more slowly as the cells internal resistance becomes much higher when they are cold. So even when maximum allowed charging Voltage (4.2V) is applied, the internal resistance of the cells will self limit the charging current achieved. To get faster charging current (using the same design cells) would mean going above 4.2V and that is not permitted.

So in order to achieve a faster rapid charging speeds, cells with lower internal resistance by design must be used. OR use a higher Voltage battery system as in the 800V EVs. Then the charging current (Amps) required (to achieve the same power charging) is halved. Peter

Does this mean that the batteries in the Niro are in any way more fragile, less durable than others that are used in other cars that can charge faster? Meaning more degradation as time passes, and not lasting as long?

 

[Anahata]

Does this mean that the batteries in the Niro are in any way more fragile, less durable than others that are used in other cars that can charge faster? Meaning more degradation as time passes, and not lasting as long?

Reports in this forum seem to show little or no battery degradation in the Niro EV, so far.
Slower charging rates could indicate a more cautious approach to battery life, so less degradation.

 

[dirk362]

There are at least two elements at play here.
Firstly there's the manufacturer of the actual battery cells, which I believe changed in the 2nd gen Niro EV over to CATL.
Secondly, we have the Kia BMS and associated charging control units, inverters, etc.

Across those two elements, Kia has designed their overall platform. They'll have years of data upon which to base that decision (across the entire HMG) and to consider the 8-year warranty aspects for the battery. Being more cautious about charging speeds doesn't mean the car is more or less susceptible to degradation.

The CATL battery cells are almost certainly used in other vehicles. I do not know the exact pouch type, but it's clear CATL would not make a specific battery for Kia given the reason Kia moved to them in the first place was cost. So these are used elsewhere and if we can determine the model/spec we might see if other implementations have higher or different charging curves.

With regards to the rate of charge, or battery degradation conservation techniques, Kia made a conscious decision to basically maintain what they had across both 1st and 2nd gen iterations. Sure, the 2nd gen is a slightly different curve and in theory means a more consistent higher rate of charge in the lower 0 to circa 40% area. But in the real world, it seems that makes no real difference.
And Kia knows from the 4 years the 1st gen model was sold that the charge curve/speed didn't hurt its sales.

True, more cars are now available with sometimes better (on paper) charging speeds. But as has been said many times for the majority of owners who charge on their driveway/at home, this makes no difference. The odd need to rapid charge on a once-or-twice-a-year family holiday isn't the requirement you should buy your car against.

As a final observation, if you used only rapid charging and did so to 100% each time then Kia would still have to honour their HV battery warranty. Manufacturers can talk about recommendations all they like, but if the HV battery degrades they have to fulfill their warranty obligations.

Kia states for the EV/PHEV battery, in the UK, the following
The Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery warranty covers a minimum capacity for a period is 84 months or 100,000 miles from the date of first registration, whichever comes first. This warranty covers repairs needed to return the battery capacity to at least 70% of the original battery capacity. Where possible, the original: EV/PHEV Battery components will be repaired and will be returned to the vehicle. If unrepairable, the: EV/PHEV Battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured Lithium-Ion Polymer Battery.

 

[antti86]

I have got 81 kW charge rate multiple times, but it only charge minute or two with that rate. Then it drops below 70 kW.